Iron palm/body questions

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any forging process conditions the weapon in question and that is ALL that is does.
How one applies the "forged limb" is what "fighting" is all about.
IP and IB training has nothing to do with fighting ( although IB training because if its nature SHOULD have practical/fighting elements in it as part of the training process).

[ginosifu]

Iron Bone conditioning isn't really a "technique" you have to find an opening to use on your opponent. It densifies and strengthens the bones/sinews so by practicing Iron Bone it's always a part of you. In a fight whether you slap somebody, block, or kick them with a shin, you have iron bone conditioning and it will be a more effective slap, block, kick, etc. than it was before you trained iron bone.

So, there is no "pressure testing" for applying iron bone conditioning because if you've conditioned, you already have it. There is, of course, "pressure testing" for actual fighting technique and skill but that is separate from whether somebody has done iron bone conditioning or not.

IP is not solely "conditioning", there is a whole IP fighting style associated with it. While learning IP, I was taught specific iron palm fighting techniques.

Hi Ginosifu,
I didnt mean to imply that "practices like iron palm dont work in real combat situations." Theres nothing about iron palm itself that makes it unusable. Let me try to elaborate a bit:

Conditioning is done outside of a pressurized situation. There is no threat. That is true for Thai kicks and limb-knocking and all that stuff. Therefore, those skills are only available in that non-pressurized setting. For iron palm or whatever to work under pressure, it has to be trained under pressure. Im not talking about "pressure testing". Its not about testing it under pressure, its about actually installing it under pressure, with a threat, real-time. Thats why I say, the best fighters Ive ever met dispense with conditioning entirely--they understand that time spent in the mix is where the skill is built--not in front of a bag, or a banana tree, or whatever. And subsequently, when I work with my students, even though I encourage them to conditioning in their spare time, I feel there are more important things to work on while they are in a class or similar setting...

You say you use it in san da and sparring. But do you think you are issuing the same amount of power? Maybe as you attack, you are thinking, "Hey Im using my iron palm!", and maybe even the motion is similar...But how do you know your body mechanics are intact as they are when youre slapping your bag? These are rhetorical questions, Im not attempting to disregard or repute your statements above. Just food for thought...

Empty cup: Theres a lot more to "iron bone" than strengthening the bone and sinew. Its body mechanics. You just slap a bag and get hard hands, you still dont have the power generation...

While in sparring or more realistic combat situations.... it is difficult to always have perfect body structure or issue maximum amount of power. This happens in any style of combat... the object is to try and perfect the IP techniques during classroom sparring and hopefully you will apply it during a street encounter with the same amount of structure and power.

ginosifu

[Dale Dugas]

Yeah I got a bruise on my forearm now I have jow and everything it's just how should I go about applying to hard to get areas like the head or back? Dale, any bruise plasters from your site you recommend? Any update on the bags?, that and I see some of the plasters are sold out too. Sorry to bother about bothering about the bags I'm going to be going on vacation soon for a few weeks :P and was wondering if I should expect the when I return.

I just got my bags in and will be adding them back to the site in a few minutes. Prices have gone up a little but nothing major. The price of shipping has increased and I have to raise my prices like everyone else to account for it.

I am out of plasters and my wholesaler is waiting for a shipment. Should be in , in about a week. People buy me out too fast, that I have trouble keeping them in stock.

Applying jow to the head, be careful as you really do not want these herbs to get into your eyes or ears. I would use pills for injuries to the head rather than jow it up. The back is tough if you do not have a girl/boyfriend, spouse, partner to help you apply it to your back. You can buy one of these little tools http://www.drleonards.com/Personal-C...eeShip-_-97938

Many customers report they work great to jow to those hard to reach places.

[Raipizo]

I just got my bags in and will be adding them back to the site in a few minutes. Prices have gone up a little but nothing major. The price of shipping has increased and I have to raise my prices like everyone else to account for it.

I am out of plasters and my wholesaler is waiting for a shipment. Should be in , in about a week. People buy me out too fast, that I have trouble keeping them in stock.

Applying jow to the head, be careful as you really do not want these herbs to get into your eyes or ears. I would use pills for injuries to the head rather than jow it up. The back is tough if you do not have a girl/boyfriend, spouse, partner to help you apply it to your back. You can buy one of these little tools http://www.drleonards.com/Personal-C...eeShip-_-97938

Many customers report they work great to jow to those hard to reach places.

Aw cool that applicator is pretty cool. Would pills be used only for injury or prevention also? About the bags, great I've been waiting

[TenTigers]

Any forging process conditions the weapon in question and that is ALL that is does.
How one applies the "forged limb" is what "fighting" is all about.
IP and IB training has nothing to do with fighting ( although IB training because if its nature SHOULD have practical/fighting elements in it as part of the training process).

Makiwara, and IP bag striking is all about power generation, and when practiced correctly, should develop relaxed power, which develops into explosive power..or a correct strike, which translates directly to fighting.
The "forging" is a result of the continued striking, but is only to condition the weapon to withstand your own power, and should not be considered the main goal.
It is not the aim of IP training to simply have a hard hand. A hard hand without the ability to generate correct power is useless.
My teacher and hing-dai have often commented on the hardness of my arms and hand when contact is made in regular training. The power eventually comes out in your hands.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Makiwara, and IP bag striking is all about power generation, and when practiced correctly, should develop relaxed power, which develops into explosive power..or a correct strike, which translates directly to fighting.
The "forging" is a result of the continued striking, but is only to condition the weapon to withstand your own power, and should not be considered the main goal.
It is not the aim of IP training to simply have a hard hand. A hard hand without the ability to generate correct power is useless.
My teacher and hing-dai have often commented on the hardness of my arms and hand when contact is made in regular training. The power eventually comes out in your hands.

Meh...
I think that the power becomes a byproduct of the training due to the "forging" process allowing one to hit "heavier" AND and more relaxed, but I don't see the actual motion and "strike" doing that since, typically, it is not done as it should be in a "real fight".

[Empty_Cup]

It sounds like "I.P. techniques" is a misnomer; the technique is the technique. A punch is a punch. A chop is a chop. The success of that technique, however, can be affected by level of iron bone conditioning.

Let's take a block, for example, since it is generally a more defensive technique. For somebody who has practiced iron bone conditioning for a long time, if they block a strike from somebody who has not done bone conditioning, you can sure bet that the striker is the one who will get injured. And the injury will be relative to the force of their own strike.

The block was a block, though. Not a special "I.P. block" technique that only works if you have done iron bone conditioning. So anybody could use that block. The effectiveness, though, of a block from an iron bone practitioner and a normal person is drastically different.

The same concept can be used to talk about any kind of technique. No technique is an "I.P. technique," but rather has more or less of a chance of success if that person has practiced iron bone.

[Featherstone]

You can buy one of these little tools http://www.drleonards.com/Personal-C...eeShip-_-97938

Many customers report they work great to jow to those hard to reach places.

I got one of these in a welcome packet from the Arthritis Foundation a few years ago. Works great!

[TenTigers]

It sounds like "I.P. techniques" is a misnomer; the technique is the technique. A punch is a punch. A chop is a chop. The success of that technique, however, can be affected by level of iron bone conditioning.

Let's take a block, for example, since it is generally a more defensive technique. For somebody who has practiced iron bone conditioning for a long time, if they block a strike from somebody who has not done bone conditioning, you can sure bet that the striker is the one who will get injured. And the injury will be relative to the force of their own strike.

The block was a block, though. Not a special "I.P. block" technique that only works if you have done iron bone conditioning. So anybody could use that block. The effectiveness, though, of a block from an iron bone practitioner and a normal person is drastically different.

The same concept can be used to talk about any kind of technique. No technique is an "I.P. technique," but rather has more or less of a chance of success if that person has practiced iron bone.

pretty much. Look at it like this-if I whack you with a rattan stick, or with an iron bar.
But..there are style specific striking methods, power issuing techniques that within each style are incorporated into the IP training, rather than simply dropping your hand on the bags.
SPM has specific IP methods that match its technique.

[Lee Chiang Po]

So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

I used to watch this cage fighting until I begin to find it boring, and on two occasions I witnessed people actually breaking their own legs with these silly Muay Thai shin kicks. One was an asian girl, the other was a large white man. I am sure that it happens far more than that. It has to be the worst possible way to kick someone. Iron palm and iron body is such a scam. It would take you many hours a day, over years, to develop into what you would want. And I would have to be skeptical even then. If you are not working as a soldier in some chinese army way back when, you would have absolutely no need to do this. It is self injurous to say the very least and I personally do not think you should do it. As a young man I used several methods to toughen my hands and to strengthen them so that they would hold their form on impact, but I did draw a line.

[Empty_Cup]

I used to watch this cage fighting until I begin to find it boring, and on two occasions I witnessed people actually breaking their own legs with these silly Muay Thai shin kicks. One was an asian girl, the other was a large white man. I am sure that it happens far more than that. It has to be the worst possible way to kick someone. Iron palm and iron body is such a scam. It would take you many hours a day, over years, to develop into what you would want. And I would have to be skeptical even then. If you are not working as a soldier in some chinese army way back when, you would have absolutely no need to do this. It is self injurous to say the very least and I personally do not think you should do it. As a young man I used several methods to toughen my hands and to strengthen them so that they would hold their form on impact, but I did draw a line.

Have you ever crossed hands with somebody who has practiced iron bone conditioning for 5, 10, 15+ years?

[IronWeasel]

I used to watch this cage fighting until I begin to find it boring, and on two occasions I witnessed people actually breaking their own legs with these silly Muay Thai shin kicks. One was an asian girl, the other was a large white man. I am sure that it happens far more than that. It has to be the worst possible way to kick someone. Iron palm and iron body is such a scam. It would take you many hours a day, over years, to develop into what you would want. And I would have to be skeptical even then. If you are not working as a soldier in some chinese army way back when, you would have absolutely no need to do this. It is self injurous to say the very least and I personally do not think you should do it. As a young man I used several methods to toughen my hands and to strengthen them so that they would hold their form on impact, but I did draw a line.

..........

[Dale Dugas]

again with lots of talk from people who have never shown who they are, what they can actually do via video.

No offense, but put up or shut up.

simple.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

again with lots of talk from people who have never shown who they are, what they can actually do via video.

No offense, but put up or shut up.

simple.

Your lack of reasoning never ceases to amaze.

Regardless of whether Lee Chiang Po has any skill or not, his comment still stands. If he is an 80 year old man who walks with a cane, or a UFC champion posting anonymously, or whatever Chinese dude you legitimately think can move people with his qi without touching them, his comment still stands.

And he is correct. Sometimes people's legs break. Most of us have seen the well known video from a decade or so ago of it happening to a Thai boxer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ3jLoYkqBU

Now, did the people to whom it happens practice kung fu iron body? Probably not (most kf people do not enter Muay Thai/NHB competitions).

The question stands as to whether or not the bones still would have broken without conditioning. Maybe that person had some genetic weakness in their bone (of course, it probably wouldn't have been known had they not been a martial artist). Or maybe they overdid it to the point that no amount of conditioning could keep their leg from breaking. Both are valid. Both are unknown. And neither depends on Lee Chiang Po actually having skills or posting videos.

But we do know that:

1) Wolff's law is real
2) People who condition their shins can kick/block harder without pain and injury than people who don't

I mean, this is all legitimate science stuff. No qi silliness. We're talking about bone conditioning. There's no mysticism involved. It's not like blocking spears with your throat with qi type nonsense. And none of this depends on Lee Chiang Po actually having skills or posting videos.

So it stands to reason that Iron Body is NOT, as Lee Chiang Po puts it, a "scam." At least the iron leg parts. The qigong spear throat stuff is.

It has to be the worst possible way to kick someone. Iron palm and iron body is such a scam. It would take you many hours a day, over years, to develop into what you would want.

Uh, kicking someone with your shin is effective, assuming your shin is conditioned.

It doesn't take hours a day but it does take a while. Months/years. Did you want something that works in a day? Sorry, the human body doesn't adapt that quickly.

And I would have to be skeptical even then.

Not sure why, since:

As a young man I used several methods to toughen my hands and to strengthen them so that they would hold their form on impact, but I did draw a line.

lol @ you saying it's a scam but you used to do it. Are you saying that you didn't get any results from your hand conditioning?

If I'm going to be kicking people, I'd prefer to have conditioned shins.

Feel free to kick stuff with unconditioned shins at your own risk.

[Bacon]

And he is correct. Sometimes people's legs break. Most of us have seen the well known video from a decade or so ago of it happening to a Thai boxer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ3jLoYkqBU

Now, did the people to whom it happens practice kung fu iron body? Probably not (most kf people do not enter Muay Thai/NHB competitions).

The question stands as to whether or not the bones still would have broken without conditioning. Maybe that person had some genetic weakness in their bone (of course, it probably wouldn't have been known had they not been a martial artist). Or maybe they overdid it to the point that no amount of conditioning could keep their leg from breaking. Both are valid. Both are unknown. And neither depends on Lee Chiang Po actually having skills or posting videos.

Actually the reason they break is because the kick's angle was wrong. Picture hitting with a 2x4 on the small side so that both small sides are perfectly in line with the target. That's how the bones should be aligned for a kick. Now if you turn it at 45 degrees and swing it there's much more chance to break the board. It's all about the angle and alignment there.

But we do know that:

1) Wolff's law is real
2) People who condition their shins can kick/block harder without pain and injury than people who don't

I mean, this is all legitimate science stuff. No qi silliness. We're talking about bone conditioning. There's no mysticism involved. It's not like blocking spears with your throat with qi type nonsense. And none of this depends on Lee Chiang Po actually having skills or posting videos.

So it stands to reason that Iron Body is NOT, as Lee Chiang Po puts it, a "scam." At least the iron leg parts. The qigong spear throat stuff is.

My real issue is with the way iron palm does it's conditioning which takes away from legitimate fight training where you can practice combative skills and condition at the same time. Muay Thai and mma conditions against the heavy bag, pads, and in sparring.

These people can take harder hits than 99% of iron practitioners not to mention the better level of fighting skill most of them have.

That's my issue with it.

Everything else you said bud... I have no issue with. And I definitely side with you on one specific thing. Dale whines like this whenever anyone questions the legitimacy of anything he practices andnthen pulls out the word slander clearly without knowing its meaning.