Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 128

Thread: Iron palm/body questions

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    2,230
    no, both of you mouthboxing nobodies have not gone back and seen all the silliness that this mouthboxing netghost has claimed in their/its posts.

    Go do the research and reread his past posts where he talks about training skills that come out of the 72 shaolin arts book.

    he/she/it made some bold claims and never has shown himself/herself/itself being able to deliver on these claims.

    hence shut up and put up some proof via video on the web.

    anything else is mouthboxing.
    Last edited by Dale Dugas; 09-23-2012 at 06:23 AM.
    Mouth Boxers have not the testicular nor the spinal fortitude to be known.
    Hence they hide rather than be known as adults.

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    no, both of you mouthboxing nobodies have not gone back and seen all the silliness that this mouthboxing netghost has claimed in their/its posts.
    Slander! It's slander and libel I say! Slaaaaaaannnnddddeerrrrrrrrr!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    Go do the research and reread his past posts where he talks about training skills that come out of the 72 shaolin arts book.

    he/she/it made some bold claims and never has shown himself/herself/itself being able to deliver on these claims.

    hence shut up and put up some proof via video on the web.

    anything else is mouthboxing.
    I agree people ahould be able to back up their claims but I have never seen you do the same. All I ever see is that whenever anyone questions anything you do on an empirical basis you scream slander like there's no tomorrow without even knowing what it means.

    So by your own term you would be a "mouthboxer" as far as I'm concerned. Add to that you ignore any rational posts which contradict your own.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Norfair
    Posts
    9,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    no, both of you mouthboxing nobodies have not gone back and seen all the silliness that this mouthboxing netghost has claimed in their/its posts.

    Go do the research and reread his past posts where he talks about training skills that come out of the 72 shaolin arts book.
    Hold on. Did he say he had the skillz from the 72 Consummate Arts book? Cuz that book is a bunch of tomfoolery. I wrote more about it here:

    http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64320

    It's basically like if kung fu movie training was actually real. Rub sand between your hands for years and then you can move people without touching them! Push a tree every day from the time it is a sapling and when it is fully grown you will still be able to bend it! Jump out of a 6 foot hole using just your calves! A bunch of other stuff like that that violates the laws of human adaptation.

    I mean the general idea of TCMA conditioning is good (gradual improvement over time) but that book was a bunch of BS taken to the extreme.

    he/she/it made some bold claims and never has shown himself/herself/itself being able to deliver on these claims.
    I would definitely agree that the person making the claims needs to provide the proof.

    Link to the thread where he claims to have 72 Consummate Arts powarz???
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    2,230
    No,

    He/She/It claims a lot of skills that seem to be very like the skills talked about in that work of fiction. Not that he/she/it said had the exact skills from that book.

    talks a big game, but never has shown a video that he/she/it can do anything.

    mouthboxing rather than being known as really able to that which is claimed.
    Mouth Boxers have not the testicular nor the spinal fortitude to be known.
    Hence they hide rather than be known as adults.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Norfair
    Posts
    9,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    No,

    He/She/It claims a lot of skills that seem to be very like the skills talked about in that work of fiction. Not that he/she/it said had the exact skills from that book.
    edit - I misread your post at first. You're saying he claims to have crazy mystic skills?

    Well yeah, I would like to see proof of his claims, then.

    After all, the person making the claim is the person who needs to provide the proof.
    Last edited by IronFist; 09-23-2012 at 12:13 PM.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  6. #51
    And Dale proves my point about ignoring reasoned posts which contradict him.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848
    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    My real issue is with the way iron palm does it's conditioning which takes away from legitimate fight training where you can practice combative skills and condition at the same time. Muay Thai and mma conditions against the heavy bag, pads, and in sparring.
    You assume too much.

    The iron palm practitioners I know, myself included, practice combative skills and conditioning on heavy bags, pads and in sparring. On top of that we practice iron palm.

    Apparently your beef is with people you have created in your mind.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Norfair
    Posts
    9,109
    Doesn't it take like 15 minutes or so per day to do iron palm? And that's including warmup, all the striking, massaging, jow, etc.

    Seems reasonable enough.

    Now if you're doing 30 minutes of qigong beforehand, then yeah I could see complaining that it takes too long.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    888
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    Doesn't it take like 15 minutes or so per day to do iron palm? And that's including warmup, all the striking, massaging, jow, etc.

    Seems reasonable enough.

    Now if you're doing 30 minutes of qigong beforehand, then yeah I could see complaining that it takes too long.
    Some lineages have a 5 minute warm up... (arms swings and applying jow... etc) and hen 15 -30 minutes of hitting with 5 minutes of cool down.

    Some lineages hit once per day. Other hit 3 times per day with the above same time frames.

    There are some lineages that do qigong (breathing exercises) before hand. There are some that do the breathing exercise while hitting.

    ginosifu

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    888
    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    My real issue is with the way iron palm does it's conditioning which takes away from legitimate fight training where you can practice combative skills and condition at the same time. Muay Thai and mma conditions against the heavy bag, pads, and in sparring.
    Why is that you think people who practice IP do not find time to spar, hit heavy bags, drill with partners etc?

    All styles of body conditioning are practiced by every culture, ethnicity, style of MA. Each individual IP or IB practice is up to the person and what were taught or what they feel is best for them.

    It sounds like you have a predjudice against CMA in general. That's like being predjudice to another ethnicity or culture. Predjudice comes from ignorance and fear of others. Until you go out and meet these people and find what they are about.... you will never know how good of a person they are. The same apllie with IP.... don't knock until you have gotten to know it better. Find someone to teach you and dwelve into it for a couple of years... then if you don't like it or it does not work for you then you can say it was not for you.

    ginosifu

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    You assume too much.

    The iron palm practitioners I know, myself included, practice combative skills and conditioning on heavy bags, pads and in sparring. On top of that we practice iron palm.

    Apparently your beef is with people you have created in your mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Why is that you think people who practice IP do not find time to spar, hit heavy bags, drill with partners etc?
    No my beef is that you can do other things that will condition AND increase combative skill. If you do 15 minutes of iron palm that Time could be better spent elsewhere unless you have empirical evidence to the contrary.

    You show me IP/IB practitioners who have won in Muay Thai or MMA, and I don't mean any folks who've cross trained.

    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    It sounds like you have a predjudice against CMA in general. That's like being predjudice to another ethnicity or culture. Predjudice comes from ignorance and fear of others. Until you go out and meet these people and find what they are about.... you will never know how good of a person they are. The same apllie with IP.... don't knock until you have gotten to know it better. Find someone to teach you and dwelve into it for a couple of years... then if you don't like it or it does not work for you then you can say it was not for you.
    no I just have a huge dislike for folks who claim 'x' works when no practitioners of 'x' have ever won any competition of note.

    I like, sanda and shuai jiao because their training clearly works and that is because it is always based on effective technique and training against resistant opponents.
    Even wing chun and mantis because they can be effective when they fulfill the above two conditions.

    There just isn't any evidence that iron palm or iron body as trained in CMAs is necessary or beneficial to the development of a fighter.

    If you can bring empirical evidence or a slew of IP/IB practitioners who have been successful in high level full contact competition without cross training in things like boxing, muay Thai, bjj, kickboxing, wrestling, sanda, shuai jiao, etc.,which are clearly fairly successful by themselves, then I may recant my statements. But I don't think that will be forthcoming any time soon.

    Or even any empirical studies done on IP/IB training.

    Dale, if you can get a university to complete a satisfactory study on IP or IB and show that it actually has significantly greater effect over standard training methods which do the same thing I'll eat my words, buy your herbs, and start the IP/IB training.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Norfair
    Posts
    9,109
    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Some lineages have a 5 minute warm up... (arms swings and applying jow... etc) and hen 15 -30 minutes of hitting with 5 minutes of cool down.

    Some lineages hit once per day. Other hit 3 times per day with the above same time frames.

    There are some lineages that do qigong (breathing exercises) before hand. There are some that do the breathing exercise while hitting.

    ginosifu
    I think 15 minutes a day is a reasonable amount of time to spend on conditioning if it helps you.

    It's not like anyone forces you to do the training, though.

    Some people may argue 15 minutes of kettlebell training is a waste of time. I've even seen people say they spend 45 minutes on the first section of sil lim tao. That seems like a huge waste of time to me but to each their own.

    For the ability to strike hard without damaging the hands in the process, I think 15 minutes a day is reasonable.

    I don't do iron palm, just saying.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Norfair
    Posts
    9,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    No my beef is that you can do other things that will condition AND increase combative skill. If you do 15 minutes of iron palm that Time could be better spent elsewhere unless you have empirical evidence to the contrary.
    I've done iron body (forearm and shin) and have empirical evidence that it works. That was 10+ years ago, though.

    You show me IP/IB practitioners who have won in Muay Thai or MMA, and I don't mean any folks who've cross trained.
    That doesn't make sense. IP and IB aren't fighting styles. MMA and Muay Thai guys get good body conditioning from their training. Some people don't have access to that and may do IB in the meantime.

    Most MMA events don't have palm strikes so I don't know about IP.

    Maybe the person just wants to break bricks as a skill. That's cool. To each his own.

    no I just have a huge dislike for folks who claim 'x' works when no practitioners of 'x' have ever won any competition of note.
    A valid argument for martial arts styles.

    I like, sanda and shuai jiao because their training clearly works and that is because it is always based on effective technique and training against resistant opponents.
    Even wing chun and mantis because they can be effective when they fulfill the above two conditions.
    Again, IP and IB aren't fighting styles.

    There just isn't any evidence that iron palm or iron body as trained in CMAs is necessary or beneficial to the development of a fighter.
    Sure they are. When I was doing iron forearm and iron shin, I could deliver and accept hard strikes without pain.

    That's not to say I might not have gotten the same level of conditioning if I was training MMA at the time. I'm only saying that what I did worked as far as forearm and shin conditioning is concerned.

    If you can bring empirical evidence or a slew of IP/IB practitioners who have been successful in high level full contact competition without cross training in things like boxing, muay Thai, bjj, kickboxing, wrestling, sanda, shuai jiao, etc.,which are clearly fairly successful by themselves, then I may recant my statements. But I don't think that will be forthcoming any time soon.
    IP/IB don't claim to make effective fighters. They claim to condition the body to deliver and accept blows without damage. And they do that.

    You can be very conditioned and still suck at fighting.

    IB is just one form of body conditioning. Getting punched during sparring by your MMA training partner will probably have a similar effect as hitting yourself with iron body bags. Different path, same goal.

    Now, if a style claims that it makes effective fighters, then by all means apply your logic to it. If a style has no champion fighters in MMA venues, doesn't train against resisting opponents, etc., then it's probably not a very effective style. But IP and IB are not fighting styles.

    Or even any empirical studies done on IP/IB training.
    Wolff's law (as far as bone conditioning goes. I'm not talking about the other stuff).

    Dale, if you can get a university to complete a satisfactory study on IP or IB and show that it actually has significantly greater effect over standard training methods which do the same thing I'll eat my words, buy your herbs, and start the IP/IB training.
    Dude I support your cynicism and realism but I think you're going the wrong way here with your IP/IB argument.

    IP and IB do condition the body. They don't make you a great fighter, they just allow you to deliver harder strikes without pain and with a reduced risk of taking damage yourself. And that's all the claim to do.

    It's like bench pressing. Does bench pressing a lot of weight make you an awesome fighter? No. But all else being equal, you will probably be a better fighter if you can bench more weight because you'll be able to generate more tension and be able to strike harder.

    IP/IB are tools, not fighting styles. I'm sure there are plenty of people who do IB/IP who suck at fighting.

    Back when I was doing IB I had pretty good conditioning but I sucked at fighting because I wasn't training against resisting opponents.
    Last edited by IronFist; 09-23-2012 at 08:40 PM.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Shell Beach, CA, USA
    Posts
    6,664
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    Most MMA events don't have palm strikes so I don't know about IP.
    Are you saying that you cannot use your "palm edge" to strike on your opponent's head/face/ nose/neck in the ground game? I didn't know that restriction.

    The palm edge striking is quite useful. It can do what a fist can't do for you. If you have artistic on your finger joints, the plam striking may be the only striking weapon that you have left through your old age.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-23-2012 at 09:14 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    I've done iron body (forearm and shin) and have empirical evidence that it works. That was 10+ years ago, though.



    That doesn't make sense. IP and IB aren't fighting styles. MMA and Muay Thai guys get good body conditioning from their training. Some people don't have access to that and may do IB in the meantime.

    Most MMA events don't have palm strikes so I don't know about IP.

    Maybe the person just wants to break bricks as a skill. That's cool. To each his own.



    A valid argument for martial arts styles.



    Again, IP and IB aren't fighting styles.



    Sure they are. When I was doing iron forearm and iron shin, I could deliver and accept hard strikes without pain.

    That's not to say I might not have gotten the same level of conditioning if I was training MMA at the time. I'm only saying that what I did worked as far as forearm and shin conditioning is concerned.



    IP/IB don't claim to make effective fighters. They claim to condition the body to deliver and accept blows without damage. And they do that.

    You can be very conditioned and still suck at fighting.

    IB is just one form of body conditioning. Getting punched during sparring by your MMA training partner will probably have a similar effect as hitting yourself with iron body bags. Different path, same goal.

    Now, if a style claims that it makes effective fighters, then by all means apply your logic to it. If a style has no champion fighters in MMA venues, doesn't train against resisting opponents, etc., then it's probably not a very effective style. But IP and IB are not fighting styles.



    Wolff's law (as far as bone conditioning goes. I'm not talking about the other stuff).



    Dude I support your cynicism and realism but I think you're going the wrong way here with your IP/IB argument.

    IP and IB do condition the body. They don't make you a great fighter, they just allow you to deliver harder strikes without pain and with a reduced risk of taking damage yourself. And that's all the claim to do.

    It's like bench pressing. Does bench pressing a lot of weight make you an awesome fighter? No. But all else being equal, you will probably be a better fighter if you can bench more weight because you'll be able to generate more tension and be able to strike harder.

    IP/IB are tools, not fighting styles. I'm sure there are plenty of people who do IB/IP who suck at fighting.

    Back when I was doing IB I had pretty good conditioning but I sucked at fighting because I wasn't training against resisting opponents.



    Props to you for taking the time to break this down for guys like Bacon.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RD'S Alias - 1A

    I have easily beaten every one I have ever fought.....

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •