What shouldn't be taught to young children?

[RWilson]

Andy Miles, if leg breakers in china also took dance lessons does thy make them viable fighting tools?

[Syn7]

from a physiological standpoint, it's the sort of typical non-sensical TCMA perspective where the teacher spouts something ridiculous using anatomical terms that they have no idea about

as far as the temperament of children, unless they are intrinsically very disciplined, they are not going to be interested in taiji, unless it's the cannon fist section of Chen or something, because kids like to move around;

my only question would be WHY the parents want to have their kids learn taiji at such an early age? I would never inflict that on my son (7 1/2 ) - the most "taiji" I do w him is our goofy version of push-hands (which is still teaching him taiji principles, but he doesn't know that...); otherwise I send him to a BJJ class so he can roll around w kids his own age / size and have a good time; for the parents who want taiji for their kids, I'd b wary that they hare doing it because they heard it's "good for you", or maybe the kids are having trouble "focusing' in school or some other sort of sensory issues; if that's the case, if u r up for the challenge of working w crazy parents / neurotic kids, good luck w that...

FWIW though, I have a friend who is a taiji teacher who is also a phys ed teacher who just started teaching taiji/kung fu to middle school students as part of the PE curriculum (he's been ding kids kung fu classes at his school, and at a summer camp for some years now) - if he's going to be successful, it's because he's a fun guy who knows how to relate to kids - are you?

We had a taiji section in PE one year. It wasn't part of the forced curriculum, it was just that one teacher who did it. He learned it during the Vietnam war and kept it up when he got back.

[ginosifu]

My xinyi and taiji teachers both told me that these styles shouldn't be taught to kids younger than 13~14 and if I remember correctly they said it was because they cause the body to contract and the tendons to get longer, therefore they would stunt the growth in children. My xinyi/chaquan teacher told me that I could only teach an external art like chaquan to children. So how true do you think these claims are and do you think that it's necessary to wait until they are about 13? The reason I'm asking is because a few people have asked me to teach their young children taiji and I'm not really sure if I should.

Internal arts can be taught to children, however certain aspects need to be left out until they are adults. I teach Qi Gong to kids, but I make a fun game that they like and they don't really know they are doing it. Taiji forms are too boreing for kids so I take a few postures and make some games so they practice just the basics.

Children should not do any heavy exertion like lifting heavy weights. Nor should they do any type of sound vibrations like Hung Gars Iron Wire. Nor should they do any type of training that affects their nervous system, such as Iron Palm.

Any of the above internal training regimimes should be done after the age of 16 (for me I would prefer 20-21). If you are going to teach Internal arts to (American) kids, you need to make fun exercises that hide repetition.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

You should teach young children everything and have 9yo black sashes promoting your art as examples of deadly young masters.

[IronFist]

Internal arts can be taught to children, however certain aspects need to be left out until they are adults. I teach Qi Gong to kids, but I make a fun game that they like and they don't really know they are doing it. Taiji forms are too boreing for kids so I take a few postures and make some games so they practice just the basics.

Children should not do any heavy exertion like lifting heavy weights. Nor should they do any type of sound vibrations like Hung Gars Iron Wire. Nor should they do any type of training that affects their nervous system, such as Iron Palm.

Any of the above internal training regimimes should be done after the age of 16 (for me I would prefer 20-21). If you are going to teach Internal arts to (American) kids, you need to make fun exercises that hide repetition.

ginosifu

Can you give an example of what you do to make it "fun"?

That's not the first time I've heard someone mention something like that, but I have never heard specifics, so I'm curious.

[SPJ]

My xinyi and taiji teachers both told me that these styles shouldn't be taught to kids younger than 13~14 and if I remember correctly they said it was because they cause the body to contract and the tendons to get longer, therefore they would stunt the growth in children. My xinyi/chaquan teacher told me that I could only teach an external <a class="ktg6us78hf8vdu7" href="#">art</a> like chaquan to children. So how true do you think these claims are and do you think that it's necessary to wait until they are about 13? The reason I'm asking is because a few people have asked me to teach their young children taiji and I'm not really sure if I should.

some throwing is good.

no hard punches or kicks

it damages growth plates

thus stunts the growth of bones.

[David Jamieson]

Wrestling? YES!

Striking each other? No. Striking devices and inanimate objects? Sure, but again, be careful, the body and skeletal structure is not fully developed in youth.

What age to flip the switch? about 14-18, but be careful. Bones are not fused or fully developed in humans until about 18-20 years old. To inflict severe damage through impact stress could indeed lead to a malformation. In truth, bone is never fully developed, but it is in adult hood where it hardens and fuses. I think interruption of this process through concussive striking is probably counter to good development.

[Jimbo]

I agree that wrestling/grappling is much better for kids than concussive impacts. Ideal, actually, since their bodies are still naturally more pliable, so the grappling can be done more realistically with more safety.

When I was a kid, I took to throwing/grappling more readily than striking. I got my start in judo. It took me a while to acclimate to striking, when I got into karate. Back then, I was in the adults class at 13, and got knocked around a fair bit. From my experience, back in the '70s, people were far less protective of kids than they are today. I hated it for a time, but eventually it became a positive and helped me. But I might have been lucky, and now I would definitely not recommend someone that young taking moderate to hard contact, especially from adult men.

*edit to add:
Even light contact from adult men. Because what is light for a man is likely moderate or even heavy for a kid, unless he's unusually big for his age. Even then, caution is needed.

[jdhowland]

Chronological age is not the same as physiological or mental maturity. I don't teach anyone under the age of nine but I have seen fourteen-year-olds less mature than some nine-year-olds.

Basic structure, sets and freesparring are fine for young children. Conceptual learning is better introduced only very gradually. I don't think the level of exercise should be too demanding and active children don't really need much more than they get at play.

I don't think young children should do weapons training. They don't have the strength to weild real weapons and their nervous systems aren't developed to handle the response times. Weapons skills can only be gained from two-man drills with realistic training weapons and weapons sets don't serve the purpose well.

[jdhowland]

=Jimbo;1184546]I agree that wrestling/grappling is much better for kids than concussive impacts. Ideal, actually, since their bodies are still naturally more pliable, so the grappling can be done more realistically with more safety.

Yep, and start them on breakfalls and tumbling from day one and they might have some skills that last a lifetime.

Even light contact from adult men. Because what is light for a man is likely moderate or even heavy for a kid, unless he's unusually big for his age. Even then, caution is needed.

"A heavyweight's jab feels like a light heavyweight's knock out punch."--Floyd Patterson

[ginosifu]

Can you give an example of what you do to make it "fun"?

That's not the first time I've heard someone mention something like that, but I have never heard specifics, so I'm curious.

In our Qi Gong style we use fetal or natural breathing. Mouth closed, breathe in your nose. Hollow your chest and inflate you belly as you inhale. Imagine your breath going all the way down to your stomache (just imagine... It wont go there though). What happens is your diaphram expands and contract as you inflate your stomache. Which inturn stimulates everything (organs, reproductive area etc).

Now for the kids, I tell to close thier mouths and breath in their nose and watch me expand and contract my big belly. They laugh cuz my belly gets really big and small. So now they try it.... thier not good at it, but they try. Now everytime I say "Everyone close your mouths and start Qi Gong Breathing..." they all laugh and start doing what I ask.

Another scinerio is the same... I ask them to start Qi Gong Breathing... then I say lets see who can be the quietest person while doing our exercises. They all keep their mouths closed and attemp to do single punches while keeping their mouths closed and without making a sound... etc etc

ginosifu

[IronFist]

Cool, thanks.

Yeah I hear abdominal breathing is really healthy. I know qigong does it, I think they do it in meditation and yoga, too.

[Mfinn]

When I visited the Shaolin Temple in 2001, there were 100s of kids -- all boys as far as I could tell -- spread out on the plain in front of the temple being taught in groups of 12-18 hard style forms of all kinds. In the temple, I saw boys as young as 8 or 9 learning the same sort of things and doing lots of tough stretching and agility training; even some weight work. I saw no kids learning any internal or what are sometimes called "soft" forms anywhere in China.

My teacher studied only hard style from the age of 15 until 22, when he started in with Lee Soo-Chin in Taiwan; Master Lee was a student of Yang Sho Hao, brother of Yang Cheng Fu. My teacher felt that we had to have the experience of hard style -- kicks, punches etc -- or we would never "get" TCC for real. In my own teaching experience of TCC, I run into grownups all the time who have never even been in a fight of any kind, don't know how to make a fist, etc.

Children need to exercise hard and fast to develop themselves physically. They don't need especially any of the hocus-pocus that typifies the approach of many TCC practitioners these days. They need to punch, kick, play sports, get tired and play.

[Lucas]

What are your guys' feelings on children and tong zi gong?

[-N-]

FWIW though, I have a friend who is a taiji teacher who is also a phys ed teacher who just started teaching taiji/kung fu to middle school students as part of the PE curriculum (he's been ding kids kung fu classes at his school, and at a summer camp for some years now) - if he's going to be successful, it's because he's a fun guy who knows how to relate to kids - are you?

Young couple to their little kids while watching us work out at the park, "Look, they are doing Tai Chi!. See what they are doing? Look, Tai Chi!"

Corrections to students, "No, circle hands like this, lift up, transition the weight forward. No, under the chin, up, and forward. You are breaking his neck! Like this!"

Nervous looking parents to kids, "Now! It's time to go, now!"