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Thread: Link to the wc ancestors

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
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    Sure-hands do the talking,,, but in a net forum there are various kinds of discussion.This thread was about Ng Chan at the beginning-Moshe's sigung. Moshe was asking how peop;e have conceptions about Ip Man's original wing chun.He was going to give his own views later. One can have their own opinions- doesn't hurt to listen first. IMO
    Don't see the Ng Chan reference anywhere here until you brought it up. Guess you are assuming that this thread is specifically about Ng Chan... Maybe, maybe not...

    No issue with Moshe's English, just posing an honest question related to the thread's starting post. I have the general sense that in Ving Tsun circles the concern about lineage is bigger than the concern about practical skill. Not calling Moshe into question, but rather the significance of lineage talk...
    Dio perdona... Io no!

  2. #17

    Exclamation My question

    THE GOAL OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE STYLE WAS ONLY EFFICIENCY

    MY QUESTION REFERS ONLY TO THIS GOAL AND WHAT MAKE THE LINK IN PRACTICE
    (skill and ability and NOT formal through a book .paper or A OATH)
    WITH YIP MAN ,LEUNG CHAN AND SO...


    IT CANNOT BE BASED AND OUR OWN EVALUATION AND EXPERIENCE ,WITHOUT KNOWING TO WHAT TO REFER ...

    SO FOR THE MASTERS X ,Y OR Z ... WHAT CAN MAKE FULLY LEGITIMATE TO REFER TO THE ANCESTORS ?

  3. #18
    Vajramusti wrote:

    Moshe was talking about wing chun- not white crane or shuai chao.
    Try not to hi jack the topic.
    Hi-jack the thread??? No I was not. I was however talking from my own experience and view of the matter of lineage and in one (from any art) making a claim back to the founders/ancestors which IS the topic of this thread.

    I stated:

    I simply believe that it no longer exists as the art would have underwent a natural progression over generations of practitioners adding sometimes overtly often subconsciously to the art.
    I believe this can be applied to the Wing Chun way (or any number of arts) hence my posting.

    Vajramusti, a word of advice if I may, try targeting the actual subject matter and not individuals. Slow down, read each post, understand the intent of each post, then offer your thoughts.

    Vajramusti wrote:

    One can have their own opinions- doesn't hurt to listen first. IMO
    It would make the world a much kinder place.
    Last edited by Minghequan; 08-27-2012 at 11:26 PM.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  4. #19
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    THE GOAL OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE STYLE WAS ONLY EFFICIENCY
    Efficiency or effectiveness? There is a difference

    MY QUESTION REFERS ONLY TO THIS GOAL AND WHAT MAKE THE LINK IN PRACTICE
    (skill and ability and NOT formal through a book .paper or A OATH)
    WITH YIP MAN ,LEUNG CHAN AND SO...
    Sure, outside of fighting, whats the measurement?

    IT CANNOT BE BASED AND OUR OWN EVALUATION AND EXPERIENCE ,WITHOUT KNOWING TO WHAT TO REFER ...
    Ok, but refer to what?

    SO FOR THE MASTERS X ,Y OR Z ... WHAT CAN MAKE FULLY LEGITIMATE TO REFER TO THE ANCESTORS ?
    But how can you? I just dont see how anyone can say they have the full, original system. Wether they do or not, how do you prove that?

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Efficiency or effectiveness? There is a difference
    IN FRENCH #EFFICACITE#



    Sure, outside of fighting, whats the measurement? even for fighting



    Ok, but refer to what?
    But how can you? I just dont see how anyone can say they have the full, original system. Wether they do or not, how do you prove that?
    thats my question, SO LETS WAIT MORE ,IF PEOPLE HAVE THE ANSWER ON NOT

  6. #21
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    I am going to say this again because it is worth repeating in a slightly different way. If you are wondering if you have the "real deal" or not it is pretty simple. You should feel like your art has been used in actual combat and developed over generations.

    Even if you could legitimately trace your lineage back to shaolin or whatever, if you don't feel like you are learning what you need to be able to defend yourself in all settings that the art was designed for, your link to the past has been severed.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by humblewcguy View Post
    i am going to say this again because it is worth repeating in a slightly different way. If you are wondering if you have the "real deal" or not it is pretty simple. You should feel like your art has been used in actual combat and developed over generations.

    Even if you could legitimately trace your lineage back to shaolin or whatever, if you don't feel like you are learning what you need to be able to defend yourself in all settings that the art was designed for, your link to the past has been severed.

    the answer is not based on own feeling and speculation
    its too much subjective

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOSHE View Post
    the answer is not based on own feeling and speculation
    its too much subjective
    Either you and others are taking your system, fighting and winning or not. You can take the subjectivity out of it. I suppose that I said, "feel," but your sense of authenticity should be based on some very objective occurrences.

  9. #24
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    A style becomes a style because somebody presumably fought and won with it at some point. If a lineage loses it's ability to fight, it is no longer connected to the past as a fighting art. It has become low-level aerobics.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    A style becomes a style because somebody presumably fought and won with it at some point. If a lineage loses it's ability to fight, it is no longer connected to the past as a fighting art. It has become low-level aerobics.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There are some differences in details with Ng Chan's wing chun- but both Moshe's sifu and sigung and of course si jo knew how to fight.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There are some differences in details with Ng Chan's wing chun- but both Moshe's sifu and sigung and of course si jo knew how to fight.
    I am not making any accusations. I am just making a general point. My belief is that a lot of WCK lineage is fiction. All that we can really judge is fighting ability.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    I am not making any accusations. I am just making a general point. My belief is that a lot of WCK lineage is fiction. All that we can really judge is fighting ability.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A lot is fiction but one needs to know how to sift through data. Sure fighting ability is an important key- but this is just a chat forum. Can't take everything here seriously.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A lot is fiction but one needs to know how to sift through data. Sure fighting ability is an important key- but this is just a chat forum. Can't take everything here seriously.
    Excellent advice. I guess that I don't know that much about historical research. I am a little bit afraid to get into it without some time to learn the proper approach.

    I don't want to turn into the VTM... LOL Okay, that was just a mean jab.

  14. #29
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    Is this thread limited only to Ip Man lineage, or ALL wing chun? I ask because not all WC practitioners are from Ip Man, my lineage included. The OP didn't specify one way or another..
    Can the OP clarify what he is asking? (I'd rather hear from the OP not joy with his assumptions and thread dictatorship)
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by MOSHE View Post
    For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors ?

    My answer will come after

    Regards
    Hang up pictures of Bruce Lee in your school and make up stories about nuns?

    Hey, I'm trying.

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