Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 129

Thread: Link to the wc ancestors

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by MOSHE View Post
    For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors ?

    My answer will come after

    Regards
    Get to your point Moshe. Ng Chan learned under Ip Man, right? Many here are of Ip Man lineage as well. The students of Ip Man are questionable, sure, but if we use Ip Man as a reference what does anyone's current Sifu have to do with 'verifying' the ancestors???

  2. #32
    I DIDNT WRITE WHO ARE THE ANCESTORS BUT WHAT IS THE LINK ?

    yes others lineages can share their experience and perhaps have the same answer to the question

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,781
    "For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors"

    The link is the system itself. Can you produce the same results in your students as your sifu did and his sifu did before him? I'm not talking about "sifu X's way of doing things" but more "this is what the system teaches us"

    The certified link is the transmision of the system as a whole from generation to generation. If you are interpretting the concepts/principles differently then your sifu or his sifu, then IMO, the link is already broken - You are doing your own personal style of WC. If the system stays intact, the ideas should not change and there should be no room for interpretation like this.

    An example could be to look at a lot of WC today, even on this same forum (and sometimes from those of the same lineage/sigung!). We see a lot of different people dissagreeing and arguing on what is the 'correct' way. If the system stays intact, there should be no argument.
    From my own experience, any time I have doubt, I can usually look at the system for the answer vs. asking 'hey, how did sifu show us to do that again?' (of course that gets asked too, but that never really give the clear answer and then I realize I'm just asking the wrong questions). And if my sihings and I have a dissagrement or confusion on something conceptually, most of the time the system can again give us the answer. That is the beauty of science behing WC, at least from what I've learned!
    And yes, it also helps to have sifu point the way! And what I found is, his answers are not because of 'how he prefers to do things' or 'how my sifu showed it like this', it's always only to point back to the system and the principles/laws of nature.

    Now, all that said, the tricky part is verifying what your sifu's sifu got and if what you have is the same. On that I can only go back to what I said originally - if you can photocopy the blueprint of the system as your sifu understands it and pass it on the same way, the link is intact.
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 08-28-2012 at 12:35 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  4. #34
    Too bad a photocopy of your Sifu was never the intent. The system isn't designed that way. Follow the principles and it will become your own, to your specific body type, whenever it is that you become proficient in it of course. A good Sifu will be able to see two different people doing what to the novice looks completely different and confirm they're doing the same thing... hence one of the contributions to the western state of confusion...

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,781
    Quote Originally Posted by WC1277 View Post
    Too bad a photocopy of your Sifu was never the intent.
    Why too bad? I think it's a good thing the intent is not to photocopy your sifu! The way he does things is his own style, and not always a direct reflection of the entire system. If we just copy sifu or his style, we miss what WC is really all about, things get lost, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by WC1277 View Post
    The system isn't designed that way. Follow the principles and it will become your own, to your specific body type, whenever it is that you become proficient in it of course.
    I agree, but again, IMO, this is just your own personal style and how you as an idividual 'use' or demonstrate the system. To then pass this on to a student would cause a break in the 'link' moshe referrs to and isn't passing along 'the system' - just one's own style and personal preferrences. IMO this is what causes all the differences and arguments we see today among WC practitioners
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 08-28-2012 at 12:36 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Why too bad? I think it's a good thing the intent is not to photocopy your sifu! The way he does things is his own style, and not always a direct reflection of the entire system. If we just copy sifu or his style, we miss what WC is really all about, things get lost, etc
    I was being sarcastic with the 'too bad'



    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    I agree, but again, IMO, this is just your own personal style and how you as an idividual 'use' or demonstrate the system. To then pass this on to a student would cause a break in the 'link' moshe referrs to and isn't passing along 'the system' - just one's own style and personal preferrences. IMO this is what causes all the differences and arguments we see today among WC practitioners
    You misunderstood or I didn't explain it well enough. My point is that the Sifu's understanding and principles are what really matters and a good one can see past the personal expressions and verify the 'big picture' of the student, so to speak. The one who doesn't get 'the big picture' is just going to try to emulate which IMO is the majority of WC Sifu's out there currently.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    359

    Along the lines of authenticating your lineage...

    Connection to ancestors... lineage... You can only go so far back when tracing the background of the training method you follow. The further you go back, the blurrier the picture becomes as not every relationship and every detail is documented.

    Ving Tsun was developed by evolving over time, changing with each exponent. Early Ving Tsun versions were probably a far cry from what current practitioners train and teach today. Each exponent took what he learned from his teacher and passed on his interpretation of these teachings together with his personal experience to his students - sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. It suffices to look at your classmates to realize the wide range of skill and understanding that can be found even within the same lineage. Is it then worth to even spend time talking about lineage? Yeah, as it allows you to understand the historic factors that contributed to what you are learning. However, claiming this or that lineage as "authentic" (whatever that means in light of the evolution of Ving Tsun) is futile, as understanding and skill are not inherited.

    Lineage claims are not so important in my book (even though they provide some background on what you may expect). I prefer evaluating Ving Tsun through the lens of 2 factors:

    1.) The bottomline, does it work under realistic circumstances? Am I training attributes that are of value in a fight and that increase my chances for survival?

    2.) Is the method adhering to the fighting strategies of Ving Tsun and the body mechanics tied to these? Is this done in a way that maximizes my potential?

    Good fighting methods in general (boxing, MT, MMA, etc.) meet the first, good Ving Tsun meets both.
    Dio perdona... Io no!

  8. #38
    Moshe is not formulating his question in a way that everyone would easily understand.While of course he is happy with his wing chun he is not being sarcastic... he has not been much of a participant in the forums. Some may have missed an earlier thread on Ng Chan --who did live with Ip man for a while and taught for him.

    Moshe is from France but has settled in Israel.

    There are many ways of fighting-wing chun is not the only available option. I may be wrong- but Moshe seems to be interested in the inter-related questions of how we are linked to a fairly complete version of Ip Man's wing chun other than name dropping and how do we know that what we do is "efficient".

    I think that Ng Chan got a very good piece of Ip Man's wing chun- in a traditional way-personal instruction... but there are several others.Moshe's sifu in turn got in depth regular personal instruction from his sifu Ng Chan..Ditto for Moshe from his sifu.The occasional seminar was not the method of learning for Moshe, his sifu or sigung.

    I wont critique Ng Chan's wing chun at this time-I hope that he can articulate his questions better
    and receive some answers without the common sarcastic overtones that are common at KFo.
    One hopes for something resembling a dialog..

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,252
    I wont critique Ng Chan's wing chun at this time-I hope that he can articulate his questions better
    and receive some answers without the common sarcastic overtones that are common at KFo.
    One hopes for something resembling a dialog.
    Im of the same thought Joy, just wish he could be clearer what he says

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,781
    Joy,

    Maybe it would be better to let moshe speak for himself - IMO he's doing fine by himself.
    Moshe NEVER mentioned his sifu or the name Ng Chan (and not even Ip Man until much later after you started pushing it). Since he never mentioned Ng Chan, maybe it would help if you just stop 'helping him' when you might admittedly have it all wrong anway and could be viewed as further confusing and derailing the thread yourself with all your assumptions.
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 08-28-2012 at 04:26 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  11. #41
    Earlier in the thread-Moshe speaks for himself-note the reference to Ip Man etc:

    Old Yesterday, 11:04 PM
    MOSHE MOSHE is offline
    Registered User

    Join Date: Mar 2010
    Posts: 257
    Exclamation My question
    THE GOAL OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE STYLE WAS ONLY EFFICIENCY

    MY QUESTION REFERS ONLY TO THIS GOAL AND WHAT MAKE THE LINK IN PRACTICE
    (skill and ability and NOT formal through a book .paper or A OATH)
    WITH YIP MAN ,LEUNG CHAN AND SO...


    IT CANNOT BE BASED AND OUR OWN EVALUATION AND EXPERIENCE ,WITHOUT KNOWING TO WHAT TO REFER ...

    SO FOR THE MASTERS X ,Y OR Z ... WHAT CAN MAKE FULLY LEGITIMATE TO REFER TO THE ANCESTORS ?

  12. #42

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by wc1277 View Post
    too bad a photocopy of your sifu was never the intent. The system isn't designed that way. Follow the principles and it will become your own, to your specific body type, whenever it is that you become proficient in it of course.
    +1 .
    Fut Hong Wing Chun Kuen (a.k.a. Invisible Buddha Fist Wing Chun), Northern New Jersey
    IBFWC @ youtube
    BBL28888 @ youtube


    "Everybody's gotta plan, until they get hit!" - Mike Tyson

    "Rule number 1: Don't get hit. Rule number 2: Remember rule number one."- Sifu Joseph Ng

    "Pure or Impure Wing Chun, whatever beats an opponent is good Wing Chun" - pg 50, Wing Chun Warrior: The True Tales of WCKF Master Duncan Leung

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,781
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    Earlier in the thread-Moshe speaks for himself-note the reference to Ip Man etc:
    Whatever. You've been inserting your 'assumptions' about what the thread is all about long before that, not to mention also policing the thread for non-WC people (which I am saying is making things worse) Where on this thread did mosh mention Ng Chan's name, or make mention of his sifu? That's right, only your posts! And moshe only mentioned names after you were pushing it here and others were calling you on it

    But since you're quoting, here is what you said before moshe mentioned ANY name (Ip Man's included) so you can stop playing stupid like it isn't happening..:

    - "This thread was about Ng Chan at the beginning-Moshe's sigung. Moshe was asking how peop;e have conceptions about Ip Man's original wing chun."

    - "It seems to me that Moshe was asking how those who think that they have fully developed understanding of wing chun specially Ip Man wing chun-came to that conclusion."

    - "We have gone down this path many times but the Ng Chan discussion is a relative late comer to the forum."

    Moshe said any lineage is welcome to comment, so your assumptions were all wrong. So, do you even have a comment regarding the OP, or are you just here to speak for Moshe and police the thread un-needlessly? Because if you have nothing to add, you're derailing it.. And don't worry, I won't add to the derailment anymore either.
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 08-28-2012 at 06:13 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Shell Beach, CA, USA
    Posts
    6,664
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    Moshe was talking about wing chun- not white crane or shuai chao.
    Try not to hi jack the topic.
    After I have found out this thread is under WC (I thought it was for general discussion), I'll stay out of this thread for good.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 08-28-2012 at 06:49 PM.

  15. #45
    I just wish Moshe would get to his point so it can actually be discussed without confusion. He's always vague and elusive which does not add in any way to any profundity on the topics he chooses...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •