Purpose of standardized stylized two man forms

[RWilson]

What have your teachers told you this was fr in regards to learning to fight? I have been told hand eye coordination, structure, root, developing the movements of the style were reasons I was given for 2 man forms(I personally prefer 2 women together forms, just admitting the truth here ).

Is this the best way to develop all of the above? Are two man forms needed only for beginners or does everyone need them at different points?


I have been exposed to different kinds in terms of energy. For example some flowed more to develop flowy spring power, some were harder an hurt my arms, some were just two guys literally crashing into each other. Sparring did not look like Or feel like any of these which you all know.

[taai gihk yahn]

as long as the routine is predetermined, the contextual interference effect is quite low, and does not approximate "real" fighting in any way (motor learning research has shown time and again that blocked practice is beneficial at the very early stages of motor skill acquisition, but that soon after it has no positive and even at times a detrimental effect on retention and transfer);

CTS always told us that most two-person sets were good for shows; there were two he taught that were more "realistic", insofar as they were ostensibly counters and counter-to-counters: one was a set on the plum-flower poles, another he taught us was a grappling-type routine; whether they would actually "work" would be the issue of course - the plum-flower set was cool, but honestly, a bit of an artifact in terms of the footwork, which is supposedly the "secret" of using the stumps, it teaches you where you are supposed to step, but that's pretty contrived beyond that u shud move at oblique angles rather than straight into someone (derr); for the grappling set, lots of the techniques were stuff u do see in other grappling arts; but really, u would be better off just breaking down the moves, or perhaps joining a SAMBO school even...

I like taiji-style 2-person flow-drills, but that's from a rehab / health perspective - there are opportunities in that sort of thing for neuro-muscular re-education that are rather unique - it's a good way to get core-activation going in a way that is more functional than lying on ur back squeezing ur transverse abdominals during leg lifts

[MightyB]

What have your teachers told you this was fr in regards to learning to fight? I have been told hand eye coordination, structure, root, developing the movements of the style were reasons I was given for 2 man forms(I personally prefer 2 women together forms, just admitting the truth here ).

Is this the best way to develop all of the above? Are two man forms needed only for beginners or does everyone need them at different points?


I have been exposed to different kinds in terms of energy. For example some flowed more to develop flowy spring power, some were harder an hurt my arms, some were just two guys literally crashing into each other. Sparring did not look like Or feel like any of these which you all know.

IMO - so people wouldn't mutate applications because the empty hand solo routines have a lot of obscure movements. Other than that - they are just like most every other form, they're for show.

[TenTigers]

good for beginners, establishing movement and reactions with zero pressure (which is increased with students' development) while developing structure-the first thing to go out the window when the pressure's on.
Once this has been established, the set should be dropped and replaced with more alive training. Many movements such as stepping back three times and blocking, actually teaches bad habits. From then on in, it's all for show.

[RWilson]

good for beginners, establishing movement and reactions with zero pressure (which is increased with students' development) while developing structure-the first thing to go out the window when the pressure's on.
Once this has been established, the set should be dropped and replaced with more alive training. Many movements such as stepping back three times and blocking, actually teaches bad habits. From then on in, it's all for show.

Do you feel the same about the Mor Kiu bridge seeking set of dragon boxing? I know you are familiar with southern short hand styles but I am not sure if you know about dragon boxing. Or how about the short hand two man sets from your shorthand styles?

[RWilson]

as long as the routine is predetermined, the contextual interference effect is quite low, and does not approximate "real" fighting in any way (motor learning research has shown time and again that blocked practice is beneficial at the very early stages of motor skill acquisition, but that soon after it has no positive and even at times a detrimental effect on retention and transfer);

CTS always told us that most two-person sets were good for shows; there were two he taught that were more "realistic", insofar as they were ostensibly counters and counter-to-counters: one was a set on the plum-flower poles, another he taught us was a grappling-type routine; whether they would actually "work" would be the issue of course - the plum-flower set was cool, but honestly, a bit of an artifact in terms of the footwork, which is supposedly the "secret" of using the stumps, it teaches you where you are supposed to step, but that's pretty contrived beyond that u shud move at oblique angles rather than straight into someone (derr); for the grappling set, lots of the techniques were stuff u do see in other grappling arts; but really, u would be better off just breaking down the moves, or perhaps joining a SAMBO school even...

I like taiji-style 2-person flow-drills, but that's from a rehab / health perspective - there are opportunities in that sort of thing for neuro-muscular re-education that are rather unique - it's a good way to get core-activation going in a way that is more functional than lying on ur back squeezing ur transverse abdominals during leg lifts

I agree with the above. That is a good way of putting it.

[TenTigers]

not familiar with this set, do you have a youtube link?
I have a friend who does Lung Ying Moor Kiu and they just go free form when they train the bridge-closer to a sparring push hands with strikes.
In SPM-the first two man set (sam bo ging) is as I described above. After you reach a certain level of skill and understanding, it no longer serves you, and is disgarded for more alive training.
The second two-man set (sup bot dim) is really more free form. You attack each other with each move and you react-wherever it goes, it goes. It is more sparring but with a "structured" beginning..then all hell breaks loose!

two-man sets are like Karate's ippon kumite-one step sparring.
This drill is extremely basic, as it is very structured and controlled. The person attacking does so by stepping in with a reverse punch which is then held, while the defender performs the counter. For beginners, it teaches distance, timing, reaction in a safe controlled fashion.
The big mistake many Karate schools make is that instead of then taking it to more alive training, say, against a jab, then gearing up and picking up the pace, they created two-step and "advanced" three step sparring. YIKES!

Any time you are stepping back three times and blocking (which is seen in many two-man sets and drills, and is solely designed for rank beginners) you are training yourself to be ineffective. You should shut your opponent down on the first beat. (actually on the first half-beat!) yet, we see many high level Masters (yeah, I thought you'd like that) demonstrating this exact thing.

[IronFist]

did that other thread get deleted?

I never found out if you like sweet potatoes. That's not white carbs.

[TenTigers]

they deleted a thread about sweet potatoes?
BLASPHEMY!
I love sweet potatoes! Sweet potato fries, sweet potato chips, sweet potato soup...
hmm..sounds like Forest Gump...

[Brule]

they deleted a thread about sweet potatoes?
BLASPHEMY!
I love sweet potatoes! Sweet potato fries, sweet potato chips, sweet potato soup...
hmm..sounds like Forest Gump...

Man, i love sweet potaotes but i can never get fries to get crispy. Mind you, i don't have a deep fryer and use the oven. They always turn out soft. Any tips Ten?

[David Jamieson]

2 man forms = discovery for students.

They help to develop coordination and understanding of the style in use. Beyond that, they are for demonstrative purposes pretty much exclusively.

intermediate learning tool.

[TenTigers]

Man, i love sweet potaotes but i can never get fries to get crispy. Mind you, i don't have a deep fryer and use the oven. They always turn out soft. Any tips Ten?

you can try brushing them with oil before placing them in the oven.
just found this-sounds tasty-
http://www.instructables.com/id/Perf...-Potato-Fries/

she uses olive oil, and sea salt n pepper. yum!

[sanjuro_ronin]

as long as the routine is predetermined, the contextual interference effect is quite low, and does not approximate "real" fighting in any way (motor learning research has shown time and again that blocked practice is beneficial at the very early stages of motor skill acquisition, but that soon after it has no positive and even at times a detrimental effect on retention and transfer);

CTS always told us that most two-person sets were good for shows; there were two he taught that were more "realistic", insofar as they were ostensibly counters and counter-to-counters: one was a set on the plum-flower poles, another he taught us was a grappling-type routine; whether they would actually "work" would be the issue of course - the plum-flower set was cool, but honestly, a bit of an artifact in terms of the footwork, which is supposedly the "secret" of using the stumps, it teaches you where you are supposed to step, but that's pretty contrived beyond that u shud move at oblique angles rather than straight into someone (derr); for the grappling set, lots of the techniques were stuff u do see in other grappling arts; but really, u would be better off just breaking down the moves, or perhaps joining a SAMBO school even...

I like taiji-style 2-person flow-drills, but that's from a rehab / health perspective - there are opportunities in that sort of thing for neuro-muscular re-education that are rather unique - it's a good way to get core-activation going in a way that is more functional than lying on ur back squeezing ur transverse abdominals during leg lifts

Pretty much on the button.

[sanjuro_ronin]

two-man sets are like Karate's ippon kumite-one step sparring.
This drill is extremely basic, as it is very structured and controlled. The person attacking does so by stepping in with a reverse punch which is then held, while the defender performs the counter. For beginners, it teaches distance, timing, reaction in a safe controlled fashion.
The big mistake many Karate schools make is that instead of then taking it to more alive training, say, against a jab, then gearing up and picking up the pace, they created two-step and "advanced" three step sparring. YIKES!

Any time you are stepping back three times and blocking (which is seen in many two-man sets and drills, and is solely designed for rank beginners) you are training yourself to be ineffective. You should shut your opponent down on the first beat. (actually on the first half-beat!) yet, we see many high level Masters (yeah, I thought you'd like that) demonstrating this exact thing.

In the karate and TKD systems I learned, you progressed in thus manner:
3step
2step
1step
1step semi-freestyle ( predetermined attack, any counter)
1step freestyle ( no predetermined attack, but established roles of who attacks and who defends).

Freestyle sparring ( controlled with gear) was taught in the first couple of months anyways.

The "step sparring" was used to grade the student and to work on technique.

[Golden Arms]

2 man sets tend to be for show. If the techniques were done effectively then the set would be 3 moves long.