Talk about forms being useless

[edward]

Thought I'd discuss the value of forms....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fsAVLMPeBA&sns=em

[GlennR]

Excellent Vid Ed

[imperialtaichi]

Forms are not useless. Dead Forms are useless.

[Matt_WCK]

Forms are not useless. Dead Forms are useless.

Agree. A form which is simply a sequence of movements is utterly pointless - the practitioner has to understand each and every motion, practice it with the correct energy and intent as well as the positioning and flow from one technique to another.

At a seminar in London with UK Grandmaster Samuel Kwok last year, he related the story of someone who had asked him about Siu Lim Tao and how slowly/how often the form was practiced. This student was basically practicing the form hundreds of times but couldn't feel any benefit or improvement to their structures.

He basically said that if someone practiced the tan/wu/fuk - fuk/wu/fuk motions every day, several times a day but without the correct emphasis on each technique then their training would be useless. One needed to 'feel' the elbow position and forward intent (even when withdrawing the wu).

This is why the actual sequence of movements is largely irrelevant and any differences between lineages don't affect the actual practice one way or another.

Any other gain (cardio/muscular development etc) is a byproduct of practicing a physical movement set and not the primary intention (there are plenty of more efficient ways to train for cardio/muscular development etc)

[Yoshiyahu]

Forms do alot of things...

From what i learn from the forms is this


Muscle memory of shapes and techniques!

Different relaxation and comfort in the horse while utilizing hand techniques and kicks!

Learning and Discovering how the forms translate into actual application!

Being able to practice my WC when i dont have a partner!

and much more...

[edward]

it sure does

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms are not useless and can serve many purposes.
What a practitioner has to do is practice the form(s) with a specific goal in mind that relates to the form.

[Eric_H]

IMO, all forms are dead.

Wing Chun is only brought alive through drilling and (ideally) sparring.

Forms are a great way to keep together a curriculum, provide some form of visualization (important in sports/physical training) but those values can also be found elsewhere.

[SAAMAG]

The only thing more useless than forms....is the discussion of the usefulness of forms.

[Yoshiyahu]

practicing forms can give you ideas...also freestyling with the techniques from the forms ie shadow boxing can increase your skill greatly...especially when you get using certain techniques in a non-ordered way...

[Happy Tiger]

VT forms offer to me a great reference for self correction. Every time I do a form, especially SNT, she reminds me and eases my VT back to factory specs and continues to fine tune what's already there, to the smallest detail awry. The idea of sequence value is interesting.

[JPinAZ]

also freestyling with the techniques from the forms ie shadow boxing can increase your skill greatly...especially when you get using certain techniques in a non-ordered way...

How do you personally measure this? How can doing techniques in the air 'increase your skill greatly'?? Skill at what? At shadow boxing? Or are you talking about applicable skills in fighting? And, can you back up this calim with actual experience?

I'll admit shadow boxing has it's place, but the actual applicable fighting skills it develops is small in comparison to actually sparring, or at the least, partner training. I would be cautious listening to anyone that says these types of thing have such 'great' benifit as you are saying here..

[Kellen Bassette]

How do you personally measure this? How can doing techniques in the air 'increase your skill greatly'?? Skill at what? At shadow boxing? Or are you talking about applicable skills in fighting? And, can you back up this calim with actual experience?

I'll admit shadow boxing has it's place, but the actual applicable fighting skills it develops is small in comparison to actually sparring, or at the least, partner training. I would be cautious listening to anyone that says these types of thing have such 'great' benifit as you are saying here..

Shadow boxing is very valuable; (and hence used by virtually all striking based competitive fighting), because it's too difficult to develop good form while sparring, especially if your really going hard.

Your technique when sparring/fighting is not going to be as proper as when shadowboxing, (or practicing forms). You train perfect technique so you will have good technique when you fight. Train good technique, your moves may be decent when you fight, train decent technique your probably going to be sloppy and train sloppy technique your form while fighting is going to suck. If you neglect this type of training your technique will suffer, in fact you'll probably end up with a lot of sloppy swinging when you go full contact.

You practice in the air, to develop proper form. You train with a partner to work the timing. You train on the bags, or with other resistance to develop power, then you spar to learn to use it against an unwilling opponent.

I think perfecting form, be it shadowboxing, or forms in the traditional sense, is a never ending part of training. Why do you think pro fighters have coaches? They could easily beat their coaches, but they need an experienced person watching, commenting when they drop their hands, or get lazy with a technique, or just see something the fighter doesn't notice. This is why mirrors in MA schools are so common. Not for looking at yourself while sparring, but for constantly checking the form of your technique.

Just don't forget to partner drill, hit bags, and spar....

[YouKnowWho]

How can doing techniques in the air 'increase your skill greatly'?? ..

The solo thin air training can only "polish" your skill. It cannot "develop" your skill. If you have not "developed" any skill, there is nothing to "polish". It will turn into "performance" only.

[deejaye72]

there was a time in my life, where i was working so much i couldn't come to class for two months. all i did was practice siu nim tao, when i came back my hands were better at chi sao, sparring and all the drills!

i never could quite figure it out, but my dad always said, you always go back to siu nim tao to fix your hands when you are having problems with your wing chun.a friend of mine who trained with sifu francis fong experienced the same thing! go figure

although i experienced that, i'm very practical minded and, the only way to get really good at wing chun is with a partner, or with any fighting method.