Registered User
I agree to a certain extent but that IMO is the difference between gung fa and quan fa but in all fairness its not so clear cut as many TCMA have gung fa in their tao lu.Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Wing Chun is no exception so in the end forms are still an integral part of training.
Dave
Registered User
The solo form practice does not equal to combat practice.
2 men combat require
1. 时间 timing,
2. 机会 opportunity,
3. 角度 angle,
4. 力的使用 force,
5. 平横 balance.
Only force and balance may have to do with "solo form practice". But to strike into the thin air is different than to strike on solid object. To maintain your ownbody balance is also different from to operate on your opponent's body and still maintain your own balance.
Without "opponent" as your reference point, how do you know:
- When to strike (timing)?
- Where to strike (opportunity)?
- Which direction to strike (angle)?
When there is no opponent, the timing, opportunity, and angle will have no meaning at all.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-18-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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Registered User
My sifu has a saying. "Siu lim tao teaches you the letters. Chum kiu teaches basic words and biu jee more complex ones. Chi sau, lap sau, and pak sau teach you basic sentences, and sparring teaches you how to speak."
The point is that each builds upon the other. The forms teach structure at first, then coordinated movement and more complex hand forms, power output, etc. The drills teach you how to use those in a controlled environment and sparring you finally get to apply them full bore. If you remove the forms it's like removing the foundation of a skyscraper.
I've seen what not practicing forms does to some of my wing chun brethren and it's not pretty.
Registered User
I'm not saying that forms practise of any description equals combat practise but on the flip side two man sparring or free exercise practise by itself does not necessarily prepare one for a sudden surprise assault either.
I'm also not saying that striking into thin air alone is preparation for applying percussive technique, however form in Wing Chun does initiate the development of certain gung fa specific to the system and therefore is an important element in the total training approach of someone who adopts Wing Chun.
Every TCMA has its own way of developing attributes for combat.
Wing Chun has its way.
Timing, opportunity, balance and angle are initially developed and explored in chi sao and / or other paired exercises.
Force is largely exercised on the muk jong.
Agreed
Dave
Modified Martial Artist
Great post! Particularly the last part, because it doesn't matter what your intention is during a form, if you have never trained against a non-cooperative, resisting opponent, then it is just dry-land swimming.
Anyone else feel like this is just beating the bones of a dead horse?
Registered User
How peculiar! I knew how to speak using words long before I knew my letters.
Modified Martial Artist
I'm sure that your Sifu has an important point with that, but speech usually precedes learning letters, sentences, etc. Humans developed spoken language far before they developed written language, so the analogy doesn't work.
Registered User
That's inconsequential. The point is showing how each levels builds upon the next to eventually create a functional system.
If you want it to be linguistically accurate it would go phonemes -> morphemes -> basic conjugations -> sentences -> conversation but again this is besides the point and since most don't know what phonemes and morphemes are it doesn't work quite so well as an explanation for most folks.
Registered User
In the current MA climate the horse has all but bolted.
This is the heart of the problem IMO for TCMA in the West - people equating forms with a mock representation of combative response. They are not.
Forms are a multi faceted training tool that at the basic level teach attributes particular to a style.
Dave
Wing Chun Fighter
There is more to Wing Chun than just punching...
In boxing everything is practiced interactively.
But if you have no partner you shadow box...Shadow boxing is a Form...its freestyle non-the less...but its still mere form practice.
Even in dance you practice routines, in music you practice....
A musical soloist or singer has to practice quasi form to build themselves up...They dont just practice being solo and adlive all the time...They have to first learn how to follow a pattern until their voice or body can mold into the require form...An they keep practicing the basics to maintain proper form!
Same with kung fu...think of forms as shadow boxing!
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Modified Martial Artist
The difference is that in shadowboxing you naturally adapt the techniques to yourself where forms make you adapt yourself to the techniques.
Wing Chun Fighter
actually the techniques in shadow boxing you utilize to adapt to yourself...Because nothing is new under the sun....Over time you body becomes acclomated to moving like a boxer and it becomes natural and fluent...until it becomes second nature. Same with forms. over time your body gets used to the footwork and movements and structure an you do so instaneousnly...
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
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