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Thread: Wing Chun Stiff and Rigid?

  1. #1
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    Wing Chun Stiff and Rigid?

    Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?

    Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?

    What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

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    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

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    Typical mainland Wing Chun. Looks a little like what I have seen in Fatsan.

    FWIW This isn't Chisau
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?

    Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?

    What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
    Why would you ask this question? Do you already have an answer yourself, or looking for help?

    From an energy perspective, flow/lau is not a constant, but used when it's necessary. As are thing like chung/crashing, saat/chopping, fa/neutralizing and ying/structured energies. Sometimes you will find them necessary in combinations as well.

    IMO, to always be flowing or 'like water' means you have no real point of reference which causss you to always have a floating bridge and no sense of a true centerline. In other words, you have no self identity and are forced to always be in constant reaction to your opponent which is considered chasing.
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 09-06-2012 at 01:43 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Typical mainland Wing Chun. Looks a little like what I have seen in Fatsan.

    FWIW This isn't Chisau
    Just because the structure, intention and form is different than what your use too...doesn't make any less chi sau than what your currently doing...If you were to travel back in the time before Yip Man Western students were born...you would see chi sau probably looking more like the video!



    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Why would you ask this question? Do you already have an answer yourself, or looking for help?

    From an energy perspective, flow/lau is not a constant, but used when it's necessary. As are thing like chung/crashing, saat/chopping, fa/neutralizing and ying/structured energies. Sometimes you will find them necessary in combinations as well.

    IMO, to always be flowing or 'like water' means you have no real point of reference which causss you to always have a floating bridge and no sense of a true centerline. In other words, you have no self identity and are forced to always be in constant reaction to your opponent which is considered chasing.
    I am asking the question to get a discussion started because the forums has slowed down alot...just to get people talking...I like your analogy on flowing. I guess you see Flow as Fan Sau. which is what i mean...I am speaking from a purely fighting or sparring point of view how ever...

    IMHO there are two ways to flow...Offensively and Defensively...or if you will aggressively and reactionary. Why chase your opponent unless he is trying to retreat from your fist in his face, why react to a opponent who is still or not advancing. How can you react to a punch if no punch is thrown or how can you react to a kick if no kicks are launched? When I flow its primarly for attacking aggressively. An the flow continues once my opponent changes...I adapt and feel my opponent struggle or attempt to counter attack or defense. I remove, redirect or dissipate his force as needed whilst continuing to attack relentlessly.

    Center Line what is your definition of the centerline...When fighting or sparring my goal is to maintain control of my opponents centerline. If i can keep his attacking line away from my centerline I am where i want to be. Mistakes may happen or the opponent may be better. But evitable the goal is to control his structure so i can hit him easily with out him having the ability to hit me in return.

    Bridges to me means when you have contact with your opponent. In simple terms a bridge can be from shoulder to shoulder, leg to leg, knee to knee or body to body...But when I say bridge i mean Arms are connected or touching. The bridge allows me to control, redirect and feel my opponents intent more accurately. But No one who wants to win is going to allow me to bridge with them for prolonged periods. Once i begin touching their guards either they gonna hit me or move they arms back. When my opponent strikes I either intercept and control the centerline upon initial contact of the bridge or react to attack an redirect the energy to cut off his force and regain the center line. With each new strike he launches I will have new bridges created. But if his guards are drawn back or he moves his arm so i can not bridge. I am not finna wait for his arms to connect with. I will continue to attack him an hit his face in...Up Until he attempts to strike or cover or block my attacks. Then i go back to control the center line control his structure. In a fight there is no such thing as a static bridge! My Force is always going Forward. My horse is always moving into the opponent. I am flowing aggressively and relentlessy hitting my opponent continously.

    Flow is something that typically happens in a non-sport fight..in other words someone on the street is usually going to continue to come at you or continue to swing and attack...You may break his rhythm by sweep or throw or pull or a push or even a hard hit. But once he regains his structure he will continue on attacking you like water...
    Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 09-06-2012 at 02:04 PM.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    .I like your analogy on flowing. I guess you see Flow as Fan Sau.
    Your guess would be wrong. I am talking from an energy perspective, you're talking technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    which is what i mean...I am speaking from a purely fighting or sparring point of view how ever...
    So am I. I don't even get what you're talking about, why would you think I'm not talking about WC from a fighting or sparring POV? Are you saying there is no energy exchange in a fight when using WC?
    Or do you think WC has a more important use besides for fighting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Flow is something that typically happens in a non-sport fight..in other words someone on the street is usually going to continue to come at you or continue to swing and attack...
    You sound like someone that doesn't have a clue what they are even talking about. If you have really put in all the time sparring with different MA's that you claim to have, or been in a real street fight you wouldn't be making silly statements like above. FWIW, I know plenty of 'street fighters' that are defensive/counter-fighters that don't just come in swinging all the time - what you're talking about are scrubs with little to no skill, which are not even relevent to the discussion in most cases.

    A fight is a fight, street, sport or otherwise. Yes, 'sport-fights' have rules, but the skills used are the same regardless the location or setting - and you're going to find a lot higher degree of skilled opponents with a better idea of 'flow' with sport fighters than you will on the 'street' (whether they call it flow or not is another matter).
    Are you saying wrestlers or grapplers have no concept of 'flowing'?
    Are you saying boxers have no idea of how to react to an opponent?
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 09-06-2012 at 02:39 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

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    Ground Grapplers do nothing but flow...From one technique to the next until they get a submission or loose the connection...Boxers can counter from the bob and weave and in some cases meet an attack with an preemptive attack.


    As for outside sparring and rule based ring fights...Yes i agree a brawler with less skill may infact charge in to take your head off. Which is why a brawler can defeat you because he is thinking about ending the fight quickly and your thinking about prolonging it. its some defensive street fighters out there...But alot of them if angry enough are going to charge in swinging on you...One thing that makes WC strong is that mentality...That constant forward pressure and continous forward motion of being attacked continously.


    AS for energy...Flow is an energy i dont deny that...But when i say flow i mean the difference between static or choppy attacks that are one two one two attacks like point sparring or something like a drill or self defense technique...oppose to all out fighting with a constinous flow of attacks.

    Are you a defensive fighter with your wing chun? do you wait on your opponent to make the first move or attack an counter? Do you move in an out of range with wing chun like an outside fighter?

    Or do you aggressively charged your opponents space with chasing horse and darting horse while punching, kicking, grappling an attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Your guess would be wrong. I am talking from an energy perspective, you're talking technique.



    So am I. I don't even get what you're talking about, why would you think I'm not talking about WC from a fighting or sparring POV? Are you saying there is no energy exchange in a fight when using WC?
    Or do you think WC has a more important use besides for fighting?



    You sound like someone that doesn't have a clue what they are even talking about. If you have really put in all the time sparring with different MA's that you claim to have, or been in a real street fight you wouldn't be making silly statements like above. FWIW, I know plenty of 'street fighters' that are defensive/counter-fighters that don't just come in swinging all the time - what you're talking about are scrubs with little to no skill, which are not even relevent to the discussion in most cases.

    A fight is a fight, street, sport or otherwise. Yes, 'sport-fights' have rules, but the skills used are the same regardless the location or setting - and you're going to find a lot higher degree of skilled opponents with a better idea of 'flow' with sport fighters than you will on the 'street' (whether they call it flow or not is another matter).
    Are you saying wrestlers or grapplers have no concept of 'flowing'?
    Are you saying boxers have no idea of how to react to an opponent?
    Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 09-06-2012 at 03:43 PM.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

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    You can easily see where Chi Sao can create poor fighting habits. If you just look that is. Chi sao was first only 2 man, or multiple man drills where each man could get in some practice for applying his attack and defense weapons. Getting familiar with his tool so to speak. Over time, in particularly in the west, people could not stop there and loved to chi sao so much that it became something alive and full of itself. It can steal your ability to effectively fight.
    Being like water is so simple. It was never meant to be phylisophical in nature, but just something that describes something else within nature. Water has no real form and it will always take the shortest route of the very least resistance. It can take several paths at the same time. But more than anything else, once it begins to move, it does not have to move real fast. It moves constantly, seeking it's own level. You can not catch it no matter how fast you are because it moved first and continues to move as a constant. You can block it, but it will seek another route. You can not stop it. Chi Sao will not get you there.
    Jackie Lee

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?
    Nope, my Ving Tsun is stiff and rigid because, as my sifu says, i'm too tense and the tensest person he's ever met

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?
    I try to, but I dont want to make it seem like it's something where I just go on and on when sparring. It's more that when I started sparring, I usually went for 1-2 hits. Now, I'd like to hit more and cut out certain bad habits which would lead to me hitting more often by using every opening to it's maximum level (it sounds cool when i say it like that, in short, im a no0b who misses lots of good hits because i hesitate at times). At the same time, I also dont see endless flow as just attacks or defense. Imho, the flow is in accordance with the way the "fight" goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
    Water flows with anything while still being water. That's what it means to me: flow with anything without being controlled by what you're flowing with. It really applies to anything imo.

    random examples:

    -I dont let an opponent control me with his strategy, but i will use his strategy and exploit it somehow (ideally that is)

    -I dont let a forumer troll me but instead I deal with them in a way that makes them look silly and desperate through their own words without me stooping to their level

    -I may be totally behind on my schedule for the day but I learn how to utilize each moment to its fullest regardless of whether or not my day is going exactly as I planned.

    imo, being like water basically means smoothly flowing with any circumstances/events/etc in the optimal way.
    Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Just because the structure, intention and form is different than what your use too...doesn't make any less chi sau than what your currently doing...If you were to travel back in the time before Yip Man Western students were born...you would see chi sau probably looking more like the video!
    Here we go!

    Firstly, Ip Man never taught any westerners, so if you want to point the finger at anyone point it in the direction of his students that spread his teachings worldwide like Wong Shun Leung, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Lee Shing etc and from my experience they have all done a good job, unique and individual interpretations, but good all the same.

    Secondly, if you had ever bothered to look at any of my own clips you might have seen that I personally do not advocate the typical Chisau platform, I rotate in various ways and have different names for different intentions, Chisau being only one of our interactive exercises. So, in short I know exactly what the guys are doing in the clip which is why I stated it isn't Chisau. Have a look at how we interact with 'flow' and tell me if you do anything like this... http://youtu.be/tx0ID9XEZ6E?t=1m40s

    Finally, will you stop using ye olde 'travel back in time' cr4p because I personally do not think you have learnt enough Wing Chun yourself to even highlight what the differences could be. That's not to say we all can't speculate, but I find it far more useful to discuss what you have seen and done 'first hand'.
    Ti Fei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    You can easily see where Chi Sao can create poor fighting habits. If you just look that is. Chi sao was first only 2 man, or multiple man drills where each man could get in some practice for applying his attack and defense weapons. Getting familiar with his tool so to speak. Over time, in particularly in the west, people could not stop there and loved to chi sao so much that it became something alive and full of itself. It can steal your ability to effectively fight.
    From all of your posts sir, I believe this may be my all time favourite. You hit the nail on the head and I think everybody should read this quote and take on it's content seriously to avoid falling into the traps so many of our peers have, knowingly or not.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?

    Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?

    What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
    A strike should never appear rigid. There is no hope for the guys who pose after every strike. I have trained beginners out of it, but I have never seen an adult over come it.

    Blocks should be rigid. Floppy wrist larp-fu isn't going to cut it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?
    WC should never be stiff or rigid as it implies an inability to change and being stiff or rigid diminishes power not maximises it. I suspect you may be confusing structure with rigidity or stiffness.

    Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?

    What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
    This is the same question twice in effect. I believe the original intent of the phrase "be like water" simply meant if you meet an obstacle flow round it to find the holes and if you find a hole no matter how small go through it. Obviously one can expand the metaphor to illustrate all sorts of points.
    If you are utilising continuous or endless flow to use your words then you are either partnered with someone of exactly the same ability as yourself and you are both so good that you never make mistakes or you are doing something wrong. "Flowing" stops once a hole is found until an attempt is made by the other side to plug the gap, when you flow into the next gap. Trying to artificially maintain a "flow" leads to arm chasing and some very pretty but highly ineffective practise.
    A clever man learns from his mistakes but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others.


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    First you say
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Flow is something that typically happens in a non-sport fight..in other words someone on the street is usually going to continue to come at you or continue to swing and attack
    But then you say
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Ground Grapplers do nothing but flow.....Boxers can counter from the bob and weave and in some cases meet an attack with an preemptive attack.
    So which is it? Do only your deadly street fighter scrubs have flow, or do sport fighters understand it too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    AS for energy...Flow is an energy i dont deny that...But when i say flow i mean the difference between static or choppy attacks that are one two one two attacks like point sparring or something like a drill or self defense technique...oppose to all out fighting with a constinous flow of attacks.
    Ok, now I get your point - you're talking about a very basic understanding of 'flow' as in regards chaining your actions together. All MA's have this. I thought you were asking something a little deeper in regards to WC specifically. My mistake.
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 09-07-2012 at 11:58 AM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

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    JPinAZ okay wow...now you have me curious...Hmmm what do you mean by FLOW or what you thought i meant by wing chun specifically having Flow? Please enlighten me....I know its off subject but i wont understand the other schools of thought concerning flow or continous motion?


    As for non-sport fights...i meant something like point karate where you hit an break or boxing or kick boxing where you back away or move away to calculate your next move...

    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    First you say


    But then you say


    So which is it? Do only your deadly street fighter scrubs have flow, or do sport fighters understand it too?



    Ok, now I get your point - you're talking about a very basic understanding of 'flow' as in regards chaining your actions together. All MA's have this. I thought you were asking something a little deeper in regards to WC specifically. My mistake.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

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