Wing Chun Fighter
Does your JUT SAO grab with the thumb to jerk the arm or just uses the four fingers...
In other words do you grab with all four fingers an jerk your opponent into the fist,
or
Do you use four fingers to guide your opponent into the punch with hand jerking motion with out actually holding your opponents bridge?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPjFUPMPaU
Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 10-05-2012 at 01:29 PM.
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Registered User
1. Wing chun does not grab. No thumb... Ever.
2. You never control with the fingers. You use the palm or the heel for all controls.
Registered User
I'm confused because the title of the thread 'jut sau' and there is a link to a clip but there was no real jut sau in the clip that I saw. I did see some bad lap sau-looking grabs. I say bad because lap sau isn't a 'grab' using the thumb, and you should NEVER pull the opponent into you giving up space as seen in this garbage clip.
Besides the clip, I have a hard time even knowing where to start answering the OP questions. I guess first you would have to define exactly what you mean by jut sau/lap sau? Next, to have any real discussion, you would have to look further than just the technique because WCK is not technique based - it is concept/principle based.
So a better question might be "What concepts/idea suport and dictate usage of jut sau, and what is the proper mechanics with these ideas in mind?" - because things like leverage, contact point, energetic on the bridge, gate theroy, box theory, etc all play into in why and how a given technique is being used.
And I would ask, why not answer your own question?
Last edited by JPinAZ; 10-05-2012 at 03:02 PM.
What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90
Wing Chun Fighter
I understand what you mean..My jut sao is different because we use the thumb to grab...infact in some cases we dig the fingers into your arm while we jerk you...But this motion is done for just a second...while punching you.
how ever the way you mention Jut Sau is also apart of our salutation in SLT...We utilize it that way as we do with the jum sao...The Jum Sao is good tool from the bridge to utilize...
But i speak the last part as basically my experience from sparring and chi sau with different people....Because in sparring a non-wing chun person their attacks and strikes will be different!
Originally Posted by JPinAZ
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Registered User
Is there a picture or video on youtube that shows what you mean by 'jut sau'? Or are you saying there is jut sau in the clip you already provided? If so, please give a timestamp for when it happens, because I only see lap sau happening there, because I am still not sure what 'tehcnique' you are referring to.
Regardless of technique - From a mechanics POV, in HFY we never 'commit' to anything by using a 'grab'. We may guide, tug, pull, etc using the striking point, palm, outside knife edge, outside fingers (ring/pinky), etc with the correct leverage. But in most cases to grab as shown in the first clip using fingers and wrapped thumb is a big no-no! It is far too commited, tends to roll the elbow out of position losing structural integrity, gives up fwd intent, as well as allowing the opponent a chance to roll the arm over (And again. never pulling into our own space is shown in the clip - but again, that is lap sau).
Our SNT has ngnoi 'jut sau'. Can see the double hand jut saus at 1:31 and 1:37 in the following clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE84n...feature=relmfu
Is this what you are meaning when you say jut sau?
What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90
詠春係一個家庭
And who told you that? I thought so 40 something years ago but I was wrong. I just got over an online discussion with people saying what Wing Chun has and doesn't have. You can use your thumb above the elbow. To say never means you have experience in ALL aspects of Wing Chun and ALL lineages. Which clearly you don't have by your umbrella statement. People once told me that Wing Chun must fight down the middle. Then people discovered Pien San WC. ;-)
Wing Chun people. Research other Wing Chun lineages/concepts before making uninformed statements.
You put yourself in a bad light when you talk only based on your experiences/teachings/lineages without seeing the whole picture.
Last edited by Phil Redmond; 10-05-2012 at 08:44 PM.
詠春係一個家庭
Registered User
Jut sao is just that, a jerking hand. It is an energy or action, but can be applied many different ways. I don't mind using my thumbs at all. Jerking someones hand or arm violently toward you can make him brace against that and attempt to draw back away, which makes him very easy to catipult backwards since he is wanting to go that way anyway.
Jackie Lee
Registered User
Why the hell would anyone want to pull the opponent's elbow into your mid-section?
Wing Chun Fighter
I can understand what you mean.
heres a one jut sao from Siu Lien Tao....We have two different ones...
Everytime the hand closes and draws back its a grabbing jut sau...then the snake hand cycle at the beginning is a side motion jut sau simliar to what this video is showing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTuThh_y9-M
now similiar to other motion is this video below time stamp 1:56...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svChD...eature=related
this I use for outside fighting, gaining entry while bridging the gap...An the second one can be use for long range fighting and defense as well as inclose fighting with the use of your structure.
Basically its any hand with the use of jerking motion to use your opponents balance against them an get them plowing into your fist...its good way to shock them an give more force!
SORRY I CANT PULL UP YOUR VIDEO!!!
Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 10-05-2012 at 09:40 PM.
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Wing Chun Fighter
You can use it as pull...But thats more of lop sau motion grabbing arm in my opinion...I utilize the jut sao to shock or shake the opponents structure just long enough to land my punch with my structure moving in unison with his face moving into the punch. If you catch the opponent off guard his neck will whip forward an his head will be exposed allowing you a clear shot...its more of a quick jerk to distrupt his balance or stance...
You dont hold there hand...the entire exchange should take no more than two or three seconds an your off to controlling your opponent with various other techs and succession of attacks!
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Wing Chun Fighter
wow i was just thinking that
Yes this work on opponents not use to this tactic which makes WC tricks of the trade so very useful...
Right...I utilize Wrist grabbing and punch technique as a distraction or disruption for the opponent so i can hit them...If you jerk their arm hard enough they wont be elbow to raise the elbow...Just pulling the elbow will allow your opponent to basically use a lifting bong sau....So you jerk it hard like you wanna pull they arm out of socket...As for grabbing the elbow or above the elbow...i utilize that as a controlling technique...Basically its good for leg sweeps and kicks...because you can turn their centerline away an kick the back of knee to drop them down!
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Registered User
Yes, this is what I refer to as somthing that could be labeled 'jut sau'. While I don't agree with his application ofa ngling off centerline when he demo'd going from 2 hand contact to one, this looks like the technique.
Here's is the correct link I was referring to for ngoi jut saus in HFY SNT. Not sure why I'm having such trouble with video links lately! Anyway, as stated before you'll see double hand jut saus at 1:31 and 1:37:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE84nEJOiYk&feature=plcp
yeah, I would still call that a type of laap sau, but a very very poor one since it's really nothing more than just a fully committed grab and far from a guiding/jerking motion of jut sau. I guess that's where we'll have to agree to differ.
And actually, I would loosely term the full action on the 'second one' as Laap Saat Geng Sau.
That's a pretty broad stretch of the term 'jut' to say it applies even when someone grabs and pulls as in both the Wong clip and the first one you posted, but again, to each his own.
Last edited by JPinAZ; 10-06-2012 at 12:08 PM.
What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90
Banned
You got that right
Great post,
He never mention the ulna and radius which gets you deep into your opponents structure dealing with the ideal of jamming and wedging, because the hand is nothing until the moment of impact. Good structure is what controls the fighting lines and not the hands.
Once the hands gets tight the arms become stiff, when the arms gets stiff the torso or chest becomes hard and flexed and when that happens the throat gets dry, causing overall tension within one’s structures or intent (rigged and hard force).
Wing Chun Fighter
Yes this Jut Sao is also at 1:55 in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4RQ8wpSEb4
But also at 0.10-0.20 you have a Jut Sao...simliar to what STAN was doing his videos showing an outside defense...
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Reply With Quote
