Simply Ignore Them (is that so hard..?)

[ginosifu]

I'd say:

Don't make claims without empirical data. This includes claiming your system is good at fighting. As much as I don't like folks who automatically side with mma they and certain other arts do have empirical evidence on their side. Muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, bjj, wrestling, judo and sometimes even karate have shown that they can be used to good effect against skilled fighters. That is why they're so well respected. They don't make claims they can't back up. When TCMA systems can produce videos of themselves repeatedly winning against skilled fighters in a full contact environment then they can make those claims but they won't until they....

Admit that TCMA have flaws (in some cases large ones). Take Lyoto Machida. He has traditional karate as his base and uses some of it to great effect BUT he still had to train in groud grappling and general mma to make it work. If you act like any TCMA system is perfect you're going to get laughed at. And if you jump to the sanda thing I'd remind you that those who've switched over to mma haven't exactly done amazingly.

So in short:
Put up or shut up
Admit that TCMA isn't perfect and needs work

For example, I train wing chun but I've also trained bjj to cover the ground fighting, learned a few basic wrestling takedowns and learned how to sprawl because grappling and take down defence is one of wing chun's biggest weaknesses.

You're right that no style is perfect. I believe all styles have advantages and disadvantages. All cultures / countries / ethnicities / peoples that did not have some type of Martial Skill would have been wiped out or taken over centuries ago.

Chinese Martial Arts have all the things you need to become a skilled fighter. Striking, Kicking, Grappling and Throwing all can be found in TCMA. I have competed using strictly Chinese Kung Fu and had a decent record fighting in Shuai Chiao and San Shou. So TCMA does work.... the only thing is fighters are not perfect and they need work.... not the systems.

One thing that I do have a problem is that people use MMA as a level of sorts to compare everything to it. I do not consider MMA / UFC as a MartiaL Art or Martial Science.. it is a Martial Sport... that's it. People keep saying show your skill in the MMA ring.... yada yada yada yada. How about lets have a MMA fighter come to my venue where the rules are:

#1 You bring your MMA gloves and I will have my sharpened daggers.

#2 Eyes, nuts, throat are all valid targets.

#3 We fight in the parking lot behind my school on the ashfault.

#4 My students and friends all will kick you in the head when you lay on the ground in your "Guard".

Martial Art or Martial Science can not be compared to Martial Sport. It's fun place to try and express some of your skills but there is no comparrison for the two. A I stated before.... I did well in sports martial arts. I aslo used my kung fu in street self defense. My being alive is proof of that as well.

MMA / UFC is not the beacon where we all aim to be like.... it's just a popular sport. So instead of trying to get kung fu to get in the ring... wht not try and MMA to fight in a real SD situation instead!

ginosifu

[hskwarrior]

You're right that no style is perfect. I believe all styles have advantages and disadvantages. All cultures / countries / ethnicities / peoples that did not have some type of Martial Skill would have been wiped out or taken over centuries ago.

Chinese Martial Arts have all the things you need to become a skilled fighter. Striking, Kicking, Grappling and Throwing all can be found in TCMA. I have competed using strictly Chinese Kung Fu and had a decent record fighting in Shuai Chiao and San Shou. So TCMA does work.... the only thing is fighters are not perfect and they need work.... not the systems.

One thing that I do have a problem is that people use MMA as a level of sorts to compare everything to it. I do not consider MMA / UFC as a MartiaL Art or Martial Science.. it is a Martial Sport... that's it. People keep saying show your skill in the MMA ring.... yada yada yada yada.

you have nothing to prove to a couple of people on a forum. unless they show up at your school, don't listen to these people. take Ironfist's comments on a POSED STRIKE for example. Its CRYSTAL CLEAR he is missing some important elements in his comments. I can't help but to laugh at most of this FORUM MASTERS. most are all talk. I'm still wondering how he could even make claims of lack of, more or, or anything other than "OH, YOU GUYS USE A PALM TO STRIKE THE LIVER, OK". instead, the dude said it was bad use of training. my question IS "HOW IS THAT A PIC OF TRAINING? DID I SHOW THE PROGRESSION OF HOW WE CAME TO BE AT THE POINT WE WERE IN THAT PIC?" the answer to that would be a RESOUNDING......NO. ITS A POSE IDIOT. People pose in pictures all the time in everything to demonstrate something in a posed manner. it didn't show any type of actual training. so WTF? LMAO.

so should i care about what he thinks when he is super clueless? NOPE. thats called HUMOR.

you know why these guys B1TCH about forms? because they either don't have any or can't do them well at all. TOO BAD FOR THEM RIGHT? LMAO

people can say wut they want, do what they want. just do your thang. if they show up at your school to test you, prove they're better, or to embarrass you....lock the doors and do what should be done. if he gets injured by 30 guys for showing up to test their coach or teacher its their fault for being SHUCKKA's!!!

[hskwarrior]

#1 You bring your MMA gloves and I will have my sharpened daggers.

#2 Eyes, nuts, throat are all valid targets.

#3 We fight in the parking lot behind my school on the ashfault.

#4 My students and friends all will kick you in the head when you lay on the ground in your "Guard".

when i hear these armchair know it alls say that eye gouges and nut shots aren't effective then i see it work in the UFC all i can do is laugh and say "WHAAAAAAT A BUNCH OF "TORTA FACCIA" (pie faces)

[Jimbo]

yeah, I know, it's like picking a scab, or that invisible splinter that you have to just keep on touching...
Every time there is a discussion, there is always some troll that derails the thread.
It's not so much their comments, but the fact that people start addressing them and then get pulled into their little drama.
So let's simply agree that the next time one of these guys (I don't even know their handles..they're really not that important to me that they have a name) starts in, whether it is about dissing TCMA, or chi-sao, or TCM, or anything, just leave it, and continue with the thread.
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

In the end, this is always the best policy.

IME, most long-time CMAists have had experience, often extensive, in non-CMA arts. It's not as if the arguments about CMA's shortcomings (all arts have them!) are original.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I'd say:

Don't make claims without empirical data. This includes claiming your system is good at fighting. As much as I don't like folks who automatically side with mma they and certain other arts do have empirical evidence on their side. Muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, bjj, wrestling, judo and sometimes even karate have shown that they can be used to good effect against skilled fighters. That is why they're so well respected. They don't make claims they can't back up. When TCMA systems can produce videos of themselves repeatedly winning against skilled fighters in a full contact environment then they can make those claims but they won't until they....

Precisely. Agreed 100%.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

How about lets have a MMA fighter come to my venue where the rules are:

#1 You bring your MMA gloves and I will have my sharpened daggers.

Wait, so because TCMA involves daggers but MMA doesn't, you get daggers and the MMA guy doesn't?

Guys, how is that not trolling?

MMA is a grounds for testing empty hand combat, not dagger combat

#2 Eyes, nuts, throat are all valid targets.

#3 We fight in the parking lot behind my school on the ashfault.

#4 My students and friends all will kick you in the head when you lay on the ground in your "Guard".

Really now, if you get daggers and friends, why doesn't the MMA guy get daggers and friends?

Are you saying the only way you can win against an MMA guy is to use daggers and friends?

[Eric Olson]

Other boards do not allow the level of trolling that happens here on KFM.

They take the posts and add them to another section where you guessed it, only troll posts recide. All the mouth boxing, net ghost poopieheads get to share the same space as the rest of the as-shats.

Its not funny and allowing these people to post up negative drek over and over and over is disgusting.

Some of these meatheads seem only hellbent on nothing other than slandering and libeling people for the sake of slandering and libeling as well as just wanting to watch the discussion turn into a pile of steaming nothing.

Unacceptable behavior needs to be removed not approved.

If KFM forum is a "community" the lack of moderation has allowed it to become a community of a$$hats. Cool. I'll take my eyeballs elsewhere. I participate here much less than a used to.

[LaterthanNever]

As usual Shrfu Dugas is the voice of reason

I think putting all the troll posts into a forum where they implode by their own toxins is a great idea!!!

[ginosifu]

Wait, so because TCMA involves daggers but MMA doesn't, you get daggers and the MMA guy doesn't?

Guys, how is that not trolling?

MMA is a grounds for testing empty hand combat, not dagger combat



Really now, if you get daggers and friends, why doesn't the MMA guy get daggers and friends?

Are you saying the only way you can win against an MMA guy is to use daggers and friends?

Sure he can bring daggers and his friends... whatever. The point is that MMA fighters practice mma fighting (no daggers) on a soft floor with no risk of being stomped on by other people. TCMA's practice for fighting on Asphault (or any surface) with daggers, guns, bats swords... etc. MMA fighters do not practice this way so they are at an disadvantage. This not to say they can't fight.. just that they are not quite as prepared for this venue as a TCMA.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem is and always has been lack of communication and the lack of a common point of reference.

That will never change.
why?

Because most trolls do NOT want to know, they want to question.
Those that are not trolls and have legit questions AND want to learn, do NOT derail threads.

Period.

[Empty_Cup]

...
...
When people make claims, the onus of proof is on that person to prove it is true.

For example, here is an example of non-truth and non-proof:

Person 1: "Hey, look at me, I am protecting myself with qi power."

Person 2: "Interesting. But it just looks like physical conditioning + stage tricks. And you are twice as big as the people hitting you. And they're not hitting you very hard."

Person 1: "ALL YOU DO IS SLANDER AND LIBEL. WHERE ARE YOUR VIDEOS? MY DOOR IS ALWAYS OPEN. I HELP VETERANS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR YOUR COMMUNITY?"

You see, no proof was given. No truth was discovered. But fallacies were committed. When confronted with truth, BS artists attempt to redirect. Since they cannot provide truth, redirection is the only course of action available. Snakeoil salesman gonna sell snakeoil.

Compare that with this example, where truth and proof are given:

Person 1: "Hey, look at me, I am protecting myself with qi power."

Person 2: "Interesting. But it just looks like physical conditioning + stage tricks. And you are twice as big as the people hitting you. And they're not hitting you very hard."

Person 1: "Sure, I have no problem showing some proof because I'm not a scammy salesman perpetuating myths to sell lies to people who want to develop mystic power. Here is another video of me using qi to protect myself. You can see this time that 1) I'm not flexing my abs to protect myself, 2) I'm blindfolded and don't know when the strikes are coming so I can't tense up at the last moment, 3) I'm not having people half my size hit me, and 4) the people hitting me are trained fighters who know how to punch."

Person 2: "Wow, good demo. You seem to have some legitimate qigong skill. Have you considered demonstrating this to James Randi? I think he would be interested."

Person 1: "Why yes. After all, if I demonstrate proof of mystic power, I would get the $1,000,000 prize. But since I'm not selfish, I would love to have that money to donate to charity or use for a good cause."

As CMA practitioners we will deal with a lot of BS on a regular basis. We need to always be promoting truth to help keep the woo out of our art.

+1. Ideally the proof is quantitative but since that's not always possible there should at least be a logical rationale behind it.

The most debate comes when the "proof" ends up being hearsay. i.e. my sifu's sifu's sifu said X, Y, Z and while I have no reason to not believe this it's still nearly impossible to verify.

[Frost]

Sure he can bring daggers and his friends... whatever. The point is that MMA fighters practice mma fighting (no daggers) on a soft floor with no risk of being stomped on by other people. TCMA's practice for fighting on Asphault (or any surface) with daggers, guns, bats swords... etc. MMA fighters do not practice this way so they are at an disadvantage. This not to say they can't fight.. just that they are not quite as prepared for this venue as a TCMA.

ginosifu

Out if interest how much of your sparring is done on asphault? how many of your throws are done on concrete full blast whilst his two mates are trying to take your head off with a baseball bat? how often do you spar with real knifes and try to hurt each other whilst a third party trys to kick your head in when you are not looking?, how often do you spar full contact with swords, real ones……
MMA fighters practise a lot of things, one of my coaches from time to time makes us work out of gang situations 3 4 or 5 on 1, another is a coach under Geoff Thompson and has us work premptive attacks, verbal cues, weapons defence etc We also used to be affiliated with karl tanswell, noted MMA coach and designer of the stab knife defence programme. Now is the above regular practise, no its done now and then but coiming from both TCMA and MMA I find it easier to add the above in to an MMA fighters skills because they are already used to contact, pressure and fear and have good athletic abilities.
So as much as you might not like it some MMA fighters and MMA coaches do pretty much all of the above (well maybe not the sword fighting bit (sigh)
And to be honest out of the TCMA guys I know and the MMA crowd I know…I know who id put my money on in a street fight and who I would like backing me up, not saying my TCMA mates cant fight (so,e of them I know can fight) but the majority of my MMA mates can and will quite happily fight inside or outside under any rules you like

[David Jamieson]

I find that a warning shot is good, then a banning if the crap continues, works.
We don't negotiate with trolls. They be gone.

[ginosifu]

Out if interest how much of your sparring is done on asphault? how many of your throws are done on concrete full blast whilst his two mates are trying to take your head off with a baseball bat? how often do you spar with real knifes and try to hurt each other whilst a third party trys to kick your head in when you are not looking?, how often do you spar full contact with swords, real ones……
MMA fighters practise a lot of things, one of my coaches from time to time makes us work out of gang situations 3 4 or 5 on 1, another is a coach under Geoff Thompson and has us work premptive attacks, verbal cues, weapons defence etc We also used to be affiliated with karl tanswell, noted MMA coach and designer of the stab knife defence programme. Now is the above regular practise, no its done now and then but coiming from both TCMA and MMA I find it easier to add the above in to an MMA fighters skills because they are already used to contact, pressure and fear and have good athletic abilities.
So as much as you might not like it some MMA fighters and MMA coaches do pretty much all of the above (well maybe not the sword fighting bit (sigh)
And to be honest out of the TCMA guys I know and the MMA crowd I know…I know who id put my money on in a street fight and who I would like backing me up, not saying my TCMA mates cant fight (so,e of them I know can fight) but the majority of my MMA mates can and will quite happily fight inside or outside under any rules you like

Sparring on Asphault: Yes... we do, not everyday but we fight outside on any surface.

Fighting multiple opponents: Yes we do, part our training is to deal with one whilst 2 other try to jack you from behind.

Fighting with knives / swords: Yes we do. When was younger they were sharpened (many cuts and stabs). Nowadays we fight with dull or rubber weapons.

MMA fighters can fight in the street... everyone can. However, those who prepare for it are at an advantage plain and simple. Those who focus on other things like sport fighting are only good at sport fighting.

I am not saying that MMA fighters can not fight in the street. My point is that if they come up against a well versed knife fighter.... they will be a sprinkler of blood no doubt.

ginosifu

[Frost]

Anyone who comes up against a well trained knife figher on the street without a weapon will get gutted….and the aforementioned karl tanswell was both a well trained JKD guy and a kali escima guy, when he got attacked by 5 guys with knifes (and somehow managed to survive) he dropped all that tradional knife work and went in favour of a sports approach, and his students come from an area of the UK where knifes are very common
Id argue the person most used to dealing with an opponent trying to take their head off with real intent on a weekly basis will do better on the street, and from my experience that is not your local TCMA guy its your local MMA guy (or rugby player)