Simply Ignore Them (is that so hard..?)

[TenTigers]

While some might be anti TCMA indeed there may be those, such as myself, who could come off in that light when really it's about being against crappy training, techniques which just plain don't work, evidence based pressure testing, and a put up or shut up, full contact fighting mentality.

ya know, there's nothing wrong with that mentality.
It really depends on how you express it. If you're one of those db's who feel the need to blurt it out every single time someone brings up a point on traditional training..well, that **** gets old real fast.
Look, we've heard it.
we've all heard it.
perhaps if you pm'd it to the new guy on the board when he posts....

(btw-I'm not aiming this at you, just at the db's who do this....
unless...

[IronFist]

While some might be anti TCMA indeed there may be those, such as myself, who could come off in that light when really it's about being against crappy training, techniques which just plain don't work, evidence based pressure testing, and a put up or shut up, full contact fighting mentality.

This. Some people mistakenly think I don't like TCMA despite an entire thread I made about why I like TCMA.

I just think people should train against resisting opponents. It's important enough to be mentioned/addressed regularly.

ya know, there's nothing wrong with that mentality.
It really depends on how you express it. If you're one of those db's who feel the need to blurt it out every single time someone brings up a point on traditional training..well, that **** gets old real fast.
Look, we've heard it.
we've all heard it.
perhaps if you pm'd it to the new guy on the board when he posts....

(btw-I'm not aiming this at you, just at the db's who do this....
unless...

In some cases, people are concerned that young and/or impressionable minds may be browsing this forum (after all, it is the best TCMA forum on the internet). These people may be under the false impressions. By providing a critical method by which to evaluate training/claims of "gurus", it may steer these people onto the path that they want to be on rather than the path they think they are supposed to be on. Or rather, help them learn to use logic and critical thinking to evaluate their situation.

We've all trained at McDojos thinking we were learning teh deadliez. If your goal is to be able to defend yourself, it's important to be able to identify if you're learning "teh deadliez" or if you're learning techniques that can be applied against resisting opponents who don't leave their arms extended after punching you and allow you to do your fine motor coordination flowery techniques.

[Empty_Cup]

...is the lack of specifics in their arguments.

Too often the trolling is very vague, ambiguous statements without much supporting evidence. Things like "that form is such c.rap...he's such an idiot because he's not doing it right!" or "he's not putting in the right flavor or intention with that movement" or "everybody knows X, Y, Z because internet blah blah blah."

Most folks are open to debate if there are specifics and explanation along with some support.

[Bacon]

...is the lack of specifics in their arguments.

Too often the trolling is very vague, ambiguous statements without much supporting evidence. Things like "that form is such c.rap...he's such an idiot because he's not doing it right!" or "he's not putting in the right flavor or intention with that movement" or "everybody knows X, Y, Z because internet blah blah blah."

Most folks are open to debate if there are specifics and explanation along with some support.

True but sometimes it's tough to give specifics when the only things people are doing right in a video is standing on two feet and not their head.

[YouKnowWho]

Most folks are open to debate if there are specifics and explanation along with some support.

Not all subjects are worthwhile to debate. When a striker meets a grappler, who is going to win?

People who train

- striking art will believe that the striker's punch is so fast and powerful. The grappler won't have any chance to shoot in.
- grappling art will believe that the grappler's shooting is so fast that the striker won't have change to punch.

IMO, this kind of debating is waste of time. When and how to terminate such meaningless debating is not that easy if everyone want to have the last word.

[wenshu]

We've all trained at McDojos thinking we were learning teh deadliez.

Speak for yourself.

[ginosifu]

Is there any way (whether in this forum or elsewhere) we can have positive discussions about TCAM? I enjoy good debates about training strategies, strength and conditioning, forms and their results...etc.

I don't mind when someone challenges my point of view. I'm kinda stubborn and I may even challenge back. All in all this is a good thing. However, trolls, larpers, mouth boxers etc get on distract the original discussion.

Where, how, when can we get good TCMA discussions without the iceholes bothering us?

ginosifu

[Dale Dugas]

Other boards do not allow the level of trolling that happens here on KFM.

They take the posts and add them to another section where you guessed it, only troll posts recide. All the mouth boxing, net ghost poopieheads get to share the same space as the rest of the as-shats.

Its not funny and allowing these people to post up negative drek over and over and over is disgusting.

Some of these meatheads seem only hellbent on nothing other than slandering and libeling people for the sake of slandering and libeling as well as just wanting to watch the discussion turn into a pile of steaming nothing.

Unacceptable behavior needs to be removed not approved.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

Ironic post is ironic.

Defense of slander and libel is truth.

The onus of proof is on the person making the claim.

This forum should have its ultimate goal be truth. Martial arts truth. Historical truth. Objective truth.

This means identifying non-truths and making them visible for everyone so that no one is thrown off the path.

When people make claims, the onus of proof is on that person to prove it is true.

For example, here is an example of non-truth and non-proof:

Person 1: "Hey, look at me, I am protecting myself with qi power."

Person 2: "Interesting. But it just looks like physical conditioning + stage tricks. And you are twice as big as the people hitting you. And they're not hitting you very hard."

Person 1: "ALL YOU DO IS SLANDER AND LIBEL. WHERE ARE YOUR VIDEOS? MY DOOR IS ALWAYS OPEN. I HELP VETERANS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR YOUR COMMUNITY?"

You see, no proof was given. No truth was discovered. But fallacies were committed. When confronted with truth, BS artists attempt to redirect. Since they cannot provide truth, redirection is the only course of action available. Snakeoil salesman gonna sell snakeoil.

Compare that with this example, where truth and proof are given:

Person 1: "Hey, look at me, I am protecting myself with qi power."

Person 2: "Interesting. But it just looks like physical conditioning + stage tricks. And you are twice as big as the people hitting you. And they're not hitting you very hard."

Person 1: "Sure, I have no problem showing some proof because I'm not a scammy salesman perpetuating myths to sell lies to people who want to develop mystic power. Here is another video of me using qi to protect myself. You can see this time that 1) I'm not flexing my abs to protect myself, 2) I'm blindfolded and don't know when the strikes are coming so I can't tense up at the last moment, 3) I'm not having people half my size hit me, and 4) the people hitting me are trained fighters who know how to punch."

Person 2: "Wow, good demo. You seem to have some legitimate qigong skill. Have you considered demonstrating this to James Randi? I think he would be interested."

Person 1: "Why yes. After all, if I demonstrate proof of mystic power, I would get the $1,000,000 prize. But since I'm not selfish, I would love to have that money to donate to charity or use for a good cause."

As CMA practitioners we will deal with a lot of BS on a regular basis. We need to always be promoting truth to help keep the woo out of our art.

[Scott R. Brown]

I wonder how many, "I Hate Trolls" threads there have been on this forum in the past 10 years!

It is so easy to just ignore Trolls.

Complaining about Trolls is like complaining about a zit on your nose. You will get one once in awhile and the more you play with it the worse it gets. But if you leave it alone, it will eventually go away. Eventually, you will get another one, but did you learn from the first one? Probably not, you will play with the next one too until it gets worse and then too eventually goes away......and on and on!

How do I know this is true? Because this problem and the complaining threads it generates repeat over and over again, like the turning of the seasons.

Not that I am complaining!

[Bacon]

Is there any way (whether in this forum or elsewhere) we can have positive discussions about TCAM? I enjoy good debates about training strategies, strength and conditioning, forms and their results...etc.

I don't mind when someone challenges my point of view. I'm kinda stubborn and I may even challenge back. All in all this is a good thing. However, trolls, larpers, mouth boxers etc get on distract the original discussion.

Where, how, when can we get good TCMA discussions without the iceholes bothering us?

ginosifu

I'd say:

Don't make claims without empirical data. This includes claiming your system is good at fighting. As much as I don't like folks who automatically side with mma they and certain other arts do have empirical evidence on their side. Muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, bjj, wrestling, judo and sometimes even karate have shown that they can be used to good effect against skilled fighters. That is why they're so well respected. They don't make claims they can't back up. When TCMA systems can produce videos of themselves repeatedly winning against skilled fighters in a full contact environment then they can make those claims but they won't until they....

Admit that TCMA have flaws (in some cases large ones). Take Lyoto Machida. He has traditional karate as his base and uses some of it to great effect BUT he still had to train in groud grappling and general mma to make it work. If you act like any TCMA system is perfect you're going to get laughed at. And if you jump to the sanda thing I'd remind you that those who've switched over to mma haven't exactly done amazingly.

So in short:
Put up or shut up
Admit that TCMA isn't perfect and needs work

For example, I train wing chun but I've also trained bjj to cover the ground fighting, learned a few basic wrestling takedowns and learned how to sprawl because grappling and take down defence is one of wing chun's biggest weaknesses.

[Lucas]

What you most regularly hear from these people, which allows you to identify them is;

'No one competes at a high level with tcma/cm a methods & 'tcma/cm a methods are all garbage

Myself and others have many times linked proof to the contrary, that there are indeed upper class athletes that do employ tcma/cm a methods in training, and are successful. Look, I can't make it my full time job here to constantly link vids and names of fighters who do this.

Another sure sign is people who think 'ufc' is the only high quality arena to fight in. That's a clear sign someone is trolling, for obvious reasons. Mma is not exclusive to the America'.

The best way to spot a troll is to prove them wrong, and to see how they never respond to irrefutable evidence to the contrary of their claims.

Like the wolves at the zoo I shouldn't feed the trolls, but when no one is looking, its fun to throw a bone here and again.

[Bacon]

Top events in first world countries like the us and the uk are the best proving grounds for things bar none and the UFC is the top of all the top dogs. It's not the final word on everything but if someones style is really good they should be able to compete in top level events like the UFC. You never saw successful TCMA guys in pride, strike force etc etc etc.
Thailand is the Mecca of muay Thai but when folks from the first world come in the Thais get the butts handed to them more often than not.

[YouKnowWho]

Some people just want to argue for the sake of arguement. I had a co-worker said, "John, I agree with you today, but I reserve my right not to if I find a reason later on." For those people "agree" means "been defeated".

[Jimbo]

Whether or not your style is used to compete and win in the UFC, it's still up to YOU to make it work for you.