Modern Gym vs Traditional Gym

[Eric_H]

Recently I've had several discussion offline that I thought might make an interesting online discussion. I've been comparing and contrasting the attitudes of modern gyms and traditional gyms. Please keep in mind I'm talking formal Gyms, not a home-based teacher or backyard group who often have a different set of tradeoffs.

Traditional Gym:
Curriculum based training, rarely much cardio/weight work, occasionally some traditional method of strength training. Usually more geared towards making a coach than producing a fighter. Uneven standards for training. Will take any student who wants to learn (if they are not doing as well - seemingly common).

Modern Gym
Result/goal based training. Usually includes cardio/weight work as part of training. Typically more focused on producing a fighter who can compete at some level. More even standards for training. Turns students away if they are unhealthy for the school (if they are doing well - seemingly common).

To me, the cons of the traditional approach is that it is not holistic to the person. In a western society, often time at the gym is the only time available for a student to train - they are not often going to go home and do additional training. I have experienced that most traditional gyms you walk in to, 80% of the adult students will have a pot belly. While being out of shape is not always an indicator of fighting skill, it is a measure of overall physical ability and seriousness of training.

The cons of the modern approach is that often seriousness of combat is lost amid the push for competition. As one Sifu has often said online "I am only interested in illegal techniques, they are most combat effective." You will not find that in most modern schools.

So what is the best approach to get the best of both worlds? Simply slap some cardio/weight training on traditional? Have regular classes focused on non-competition combat in the modern setting?

[SAAMAG]

I think there are many schools that have a combined approach. I once trained in an EBMAS school that did quite well in that regard.

The instructor would have the class work basic techniques, forms, 2-man exercises, but also added in focus mitt drills, free sparring, and the last 30 minutes of class was devoted to circuit training (the cardio and conditioning needed for fighting). His circuit would always contain elements of the class, but done in a fashion that combined fitness into the course. So it might be a round of jump rope, followed by a round of punching, followed by a round of side kicks, followed by a round of pushups, followed by a round of front kicks, leg climbers, sit ups, burpees, or whatever.

This basically addressed the training that all WC schools have, and added in the more dynamic training needed for real world fighting ability.

[GlennR]

Well its horses for courses

I think youll find a lot of people that do your traditional approach just dont have the personality or desire from what a modern gym would offer and vice versa.

Having said that, its the old question.......... what will make me a better fighter, in a given situation, taking into account the amount of time and energy someone i want to put into it.

If you want to compete, you have to do the cardio/conditioning work to be proficient (with technique as well)

If you just want some basic self defense, then not so much, work simple to apply effective techniques

But if you want to be elite (for want of a better world) its the whole thing.... technique, sparring, conditioning and so on

[Wayfaring]

E,

That's a well thought-out post. I agree with you in your analysis and conclusions.

I will say that my view has changed regarding combat and competition. I think combat is the ultimate competition - you are not competing for a medal, a trophy, or money. You are competing for your life and the well-being of yourself and loved ones. Who would you rather be in that scenario? Someone who has never competed in any form of combat competition? Or someone who has some experience competing in a scaled down version of what you are facing, even if it was with limited rules?

I think it's a great point that your average person off the street training any martial art will usually not do outside conditioning, but will be better served by incorporating conditioning into your training. I think with the traditional approach people do far too many mental gymnastics and nowhere near enough physical gymnastics. If you are not pushing your body, your skill is not improving even if you think you have a better mental grasp of technique. That is the basis for delusion.

I think it's a disgrace to martial arts that 80% of students have a pot belly yet talk about their skill in "the street", "real combat", or "life and death scenarios". They are delusional. Their physical bodies would give out far sooner than they think they would in a real scenario. And it's relatively simple to illustrate that to them in a simple 3 minute sparring round. Oh, and non-conditioned people training illegal techniques is not doing them any good. To eye gouge someone or kick them in the nuts, you have to develop your attributes to be better at delivering that than the person defending is at avoiding it.

So what's the best approach to getting the best of both worlds? You have to dedicate time toward what you want to accomplish. I would say buying a timer for your school is the #1 thing. That way you can measure periods of intense cardio, whether in just conditioning, or in a san sou type of training where you are getting the heart rate up.

If everyone is unconditioned in the school you train, you need to make them run and do intense calisthenics. And you need to ensure that their heart rate is up during the entire time you are working. If your average guy off the street loses 10 lbs in the first month of training with you then you are on the right track. They will see a holistic benefit that will keep them pursuing training.

Yes combine them. And make combat gear a requirement. Mouthpiece, hand wraps, cup, gloves. That way you can strike harder and not get injured, and can keep sessions going with higher levels of cardio involved. Make classes short and intense. Begin class with 16 minutes of intense cardio, varying what you do to get there. End class with 4 3-minute full sparring rounds.

[Bacon]

Actually the more traditional way to do things is to screen applicants for admission to the school.

[Eric_H]

Actually the more traditional way to do things is to screen applicants for admission to the school.

Bacon,

I have often seen this be the case for teachers who do not rely on their gym as a primary source of income. However, once they do use the school for that, they'll typically take any/everyone to help revenue.

It is not a guarantee in either scenario, but I have seen many more people kicked out of more modern schools for being toxic/detrimental to the training environment than i have in traditionally focused schools.

[desertwingchun2]

I think it's a disgrace to martial arts that 80% of students have a pot belly yet talk about their skill in "the street", "real combat", or "life and death scenarios". They are delusional. Their physical bodies would give out far sooner than they think they would in a real scenario. And it's relatively simple to illustrate that to them in a simple 3 minute sparring round. Oh, and non-conditioned people training illegal techniques is not doing them any good. To eye gouge someone or kick them in the nuts, you have to develop your attributes to be better at delivering that than the person defending is at avoiding it.

Only issue I have here is I'm a pot bellied guy that has done well in very real fights with guys who are very much street tough guys.

I agree if I were to go into a ring and go toe to toe with someone who trains for this daily, the result would be different. Most likely if I didn't I didn't break the guys nose and have him quit I would be like the bullies on Bully Beatdown.

But my reality has been these are not the guys that will snap and get crazy. My experience has been street toughs with too much liquor or meth or both are the ones that snap and go off.

HAHAHA its funny you mentioned kicking someone in the nuts. That actually works. Do you remember Sifu taught an escape from a rear bear hug? That worked - swear on my eyesight that worked. Dude dropped to both knees and me and my buddy finished whta we were doing and bailed. Later I heard the guy was pi$$ing blood. That was when I was not so pot bellied however.

Anyways just my $.02

[desertwingchun2]

IMO - i think training halls should be training halls and it is the students responsibility to maintain their physical health.

I mean why would I spend my money and time at a martial arts school where they wanted me to jump rope and do calisthenics?

If I joined a gym/health club for my health, why would I want them to teach me SNT instead of Taibo?

Maybe the solution is to do a class an hour before kung fu training that is a calisthenics based class.

Also you can have an elite group that wants to focus on both. To join the club offer separate level plans. One plan is traditional training and the other is overall health and fitness with gung fu traing for sport or real world combat.

I have a feeling level 2 would be smaller but a more dedicated crowd.

[nickvaz]

Each training venue described here will appeal to a different kind of student. We all have our own unique reasons for choosing to train a Martial Art.

For me I prefer a more traditional school/gym. I tend to do my endurance and strength training outside of my Martial Arts training. Basically I think that the value a Sifu brings to their students is their knowledge of Wing Chun (in my case), not their ability to count off sit ups and push ups. Just my opinion.

I do tend to agree with a point I believe was made in the original post. I think that modern school/gym can focus too much on the competitive aspect of things. I tend to think of competitive fighting as a known environment. Basically you know that you are fighting one person, you know that it is a competition that kind of thing. When I was younger and training in Enshin when I would train for a tournament my focus was very different than training for defense, or what I consider an unknown environment.

I have seen some cases where students don’t look to be in great physical condition, and I have also been surprised by what that person was actually able to do.

I am not claiming to have the answer to what is the best approach in general. I do think that what is best for a given student does change over time. Clearly now in my late 30’s I am not looking to jump in to any kind of a competitive fighting venue. My focus is on being able to protect myself and those I care about.

[Wayfaring]

Clearly now in my late 30’s I am not looking to jump in to any kind of a competitive fighting venue. My focus is on being able to protect myself and those I care about.

Then buy a handgun, get a CCW, and carry good non-lethal alternative weapons, like a good pepper spray, and a blade. Then stay out of known questionable areas. If you do need to venture into questionable areas, do it in large groups.

In our day and time using a TMA to "protect yourself" directly is kind of unrealistic in a really dangerous situation. Of course it's sufficient to beat up drunks.

[Wayfaring]

Only issue I have here is I'm a pot bellied guy that has done well in very real fights with guys who are very much street tough guys.

But my reality has been these are not the guys that will snap and get crazy. My experience has been street toughs with too much liquor or meth or both are the ones that snap and go off.

I don't consider an untrained loudmouthed drunk in a bar or outside of a bar a "real fight". Or one of the next to homeless meth addicts around. They could be dangerous with weapons. Or in crowds. And it's unpredictable. But it's easy to beat up drunks and that really has nothing to do with "real fights" or self-defense.

Honestly, I used to before I upped the level of my training to test myself against skilled people.

I agree if I were to go into a ring and go toe to toe with someone who trains for this daily, the result would be different. Most likely if I didn't I didn't break the guys nose and have him quit I would be like the bullies on Bully Beatdown.

Haha. I've rolled with one of those guys. Pretty tough. Lately I've been training like that though, and in a completely unexpected development the biggest thing I love about it is the impact on my overall health.

HAHAHA its funny you mentioned kicking someone in the nuts. That actually works. Do you remember Sifu taught an escape from a rear bear hug? That worked - swear on my eyesight that worked. Dude dropped to both knees and me and my buddy finished whta we were doing and bailed. Later I heard the guy was pi$$ing blood. That was when I was not so pot bellied however.

Anyways just my $.02

Sure - all of the basic self-defense stuff will work in the right environment against the right opponent. What to do when it's not the right environment or right opponent is the tough part.

[Wayfaring]

IMO - i think training halls should be training halls and it is the students responsibility to maintain their physical health.

I mean why would I spend my money and time at a martial arts school where they wanted me to jump rope and do calisthenics?

Funny - I train at a couple of ground schools with polar opposite philosophies. The one doesn't do physical training as part of class (but the teacher stays himself after class and does a personal cardio/strength workout that people join). The other has an intense warmup period for 30 min involving cardio / strength incorporated. Both however do live training for the last 30 min of class minimum.

There's room for both approaches or a blend. However, live sparring IMO is not optional.

[Kellen Bassette]

Got to remember that Kung Fu is "skill achieved through hard work." If your not training hard I question how traditional you are anyway.

I agree that you come to a MA school to learn martial arts, not for push ups and sit ups, but the reality is most people who don't fight competitively, won't do this at home, so it needs to be done in class. I really feel many traditional classes are just too short. A lot of schools only train 45 minutes to an hour, a few days a week. I think you need that much in just pure exercise and at least that much in real MA training to be "decent". (For the record I don't think a 45 minute class is really "traditional", that's a modern approach to modern attitudes and realities, in some aspects of training MMA gyms do certain things more "traditionally" than so called traditional schools.

At any rate, I think a martial artist that is out of shape AND doesn't engage in hard sparring, has little better than a punchers chance in an altercation with an athlete. People I've helped train have asked me my opinion on weights, yoga, gymnastics, ect. I tell them anything that helps your strength, cardio, flexibility, agility or coordination will help make you a better fighter; it may be indirectly, but it's the same way that forms make you better, indirectly...it makes you a better athlete, capable of better movement and this goes a long way toward making you a better martial artist.

People who don't fight don't realize how important cardio is, or often that they may even be lacking it. 1 minute of fighting is far more demanding than 15 minutes of sparring, your adrenaline is at a whole other level when it's the real thing, be it in the street or in the ring. I know street fights don't last nearly as long as a fight in the ring, but your adrenaline will be so high a few punches could totally drain you; and should you get hit, that saps an incredible amount of energy, even if it doesn't cause much damage.

I think classes need to be at least 2 hours if they are to address fitness and martial ability, which go hand in hand. If people don't want to get in shape and spar hard, I guess they can skip it and go on playing Kung Fu dress up party and hope they never have to get into anything more than a philosophical debate. If you want good Kung Fu than do hard things.

[imperialtaichi]

The sad reality is, many people who take up TCMA are doing it to fulfil the illusion of becoming a good fighter, and are not willing to put in the hard work. They don't want to be shown that they can't fight, nor not fit enough to fight. As soon as they are shown the reality, they leave and go to another place that can fulfil their fantasy.

That's why many of the very successful gyms/schools are just part of the entertainment industry.

[Kellen Bassette]

The sad reality is, many people who take up TCMA are doing it to fulfil the illusion of becoming a good fighter, and are not willing to put in the hard work. They don't want to be shown that they can't fight, nor not fit enough to fight. As soon as they are shown the reality, they leave and go to another place that can fulfil their fantasy.

That's why many of the very successful gyms/schools are just part of the entertainment industry.

That sums it all up, well said...