Benefits of Horse Stance Training

[Frost]

they are missing out on a major training component in all phases of training.

Never would?? huh! I think you would be surprised in the ways MMA and the pros are training now a days.


Come to think of it, most of the UFC champs are all MMA guys with a BB/ solid foundation in traditional arts, many of them probably have done/ do a great deal of stance/ horse training. static, dynamic and ballistic.

Really which pros have you trained with on a regular basis and which ones are doing stance training now, not in the past but now as part of their training?

[Frost]

I explained biomechanically why hip flexors don't play a role in horse stance. I'm not sure what else you need.

Here I will try again:

Hip flexors pull the knee up. Like if you do a front kick and hold your leg out, you will feel them flexing. If you do an exaggerated marching motion, that is what your hip flexors do. If you throw a knee strike, that is hip flexors.

Hip flexors pull the knee up against tension. In the above examples, the "tension" is the weight of your leg on gravity. If you put weights on your ankles and did a marching motion, your hip flexors would work harder because they are lifting more weight (the weight of your leg + the ankle weights against gravity).

When you sit in a horse stance, you're not pulling your knees up against any resistance, therefore your hip flexors are not doing anything.

Hip flexors are antagonistic in a horse stance. If they are doing anything during a horse stance they are relaxing by definition of antagonist muscle.

you must have learned by now jamison goes off in a huff if he is proved wrong

If people dont like the science behind Ironfists posts refute it with...well better science, dont accuse him of being puffed up when he is simply stating facts about the human body, or try to back out by saying i dont know the science but it works for me, argue against it using the same science he is, dont make it personal because you cant disprove what he is saying.....

[YouKnowWho]

1. Does "static horse stance" training have value? Of course it does. When you are in a 9 x 5 prison cell, the static horse stance training may be the only thing that you are able to do.

2. Will it be better to spend the same training time in "dynamic horse stance" training? Of course it's better. Onething for sure is that you can't stand in horse stance and expect your opponent to fly over your head by himself. By doing dynamic horse stance training such as "hip throw" drill, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone (strong legs, fast footwork).

3. Will it be better to train "dynamic horse stance with weight" (such as throwing dummy)? Of course it's better. You can kill 3 birds with 1 stone (strong legs, fast footwork, strong structure). It takes strong legs, fast footwork, and strong structure to be able to do the "firemen's carry" and there is no argue on that.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anima...kataguruma.htm

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keep it civil and watch the insults people, if you can't make your point without insulting, being rude or condescending then you don't have much of a point, do you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What seems to be needed to be reiterated is that NO ONE is saying that horse stance training is NOT beneficial.
What is being said is that, outside of the direct attributes in static stance training ( you get better at doing a horse stance by doing it and holding it as long as you can) there isn't MUCH ( no one is saying there isn't ANY) carryover to dynamic MA application.
Certainly every MA has a "horse stance" whether it be a "direct" stance or a transitional stance.
Training techniques withing a horse stance gives you the double benefit.
Training the horse stance in a dynamic as well as static way gives you better benefits than just one or the other.
Everyone agrees with this.
The issue is NOT that horse stance training has benefits ( all agree it has) , the issue seems to be what those benefits are and if there are better ways to get them other than horse stance training.
I think its a "false" argument because there is no reason to NOT do BOTH and by both I mean do static and dynamic horse stance training AND other methods of leg strengthening.

[David Jamieson]

you must have learned by now jamison goes off in a huff if he is proved wrong

If people dont like the science behind Ironfists posts refute it with...well better science, dont accuse him of being puffed up when he is simply stating facts about the human body, or try to back out by saying i dont know the science but it works for me, argue against it using the same science he is, dont make it personal because you cant disprove what he is saying.....

Listen Frost, don't be making your typical jackwagon commentary.

Ironfist Cherry picked ONE line out of an entire article and now believes that hip flexor use is related to how to build them. NO science about it at all and it was an article I provided.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but try not to be a herd minded idiot and start going off on me when you haven't been following along.

[wenshu]

If people dont like the science behind Ironfists posts refute it with...well better science, dont accuse him of being puffed up when he is simply stating facts about the human body, or try to back out by saying i dont know the science but it works for me, argue against it using the same science he is, dont make it personal because you cant disprove what he is saying.....

You use the term science too loosely. The problem with this particular thread (other than its existence in the first place) is that one person made a lazy mistake about hip flexors and somehow that became the focus in spite of the fact that Jameson was the only one who said anything about hip flexors. Now if he had said something about compression of the hip flexors which is actually important for a lot of things it would be different.

Just to remind everybody what science actually looks like.

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab...Effects.2.aspx

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22991668

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1501558

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20186425

This is about maximum isometric strength so it's only marginally related to stance training but it's really interesting nonetheless.

http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/14/v5combat-14.pdf

if you can't make your point without insulting, being rude or condescending then you don't have much of a point, do you?

Lets not delude ourselves; sometimes that is the point.

I reserve the right to troll the trolls. Actually, I blame Lucas for starting this in the first place cause I'm pretty sure he was trolling.

[Frost]

Listen Frost, don't be making your typical jackwagon commentary.

Ironfist Cherry picked ONE line out of an entire article and now believes that hip flexor use is related to how to build them. NO science about it at all and it was an article I provided.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but try not to be a herd minded idiot and start going off on me when you haven't been following along.

He cherry picked something so fundamentally wrong it points to your limited knowledge on the subject, so perhaps you should be the one to stop chest beating and inferring we all should be as experienced as you before making comments

Here’s what I mean by your chest beating and picking on peoples as you see it lack of knowledge

1) If you don't think that helps your kicking, you likely don't know much about the human body.
2) You young bucks always so quick to try to get people to turn away from stuff you don't do. YOu get critical about things you have really no place criticizing.

As for this

try not to be a herd minded idiot

(if I was you id take a look in the mirror before making statements like this)

You keep going on and on about how ironfist doesn’t have any TCMA knowledge so shouldn’t be speaking on the subject, yet cant refute anything he says about how misguided you were on one of your key points honestly its funny

Ironfist went into a lengthy post as to why you were so wrong to which your reply to his detailed point was...so you are against resistance training, great come back why to simply hold your hand up and say sorry I was wrong I don’t know what im talking about

[hskwarrior]

I GIVE THIS AS A GIFT, SINCE THE FAKE SEEMS TO FEEL HE IS DA REAL, WITH HIS PERFECT BO STANCE.

WHAT DO YOU SEE WRONG WITH IT? WHY IS IT PERFECT OR WHY IS IT NOT PERFECT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO8-1...feature=relmfu

[sanjuro_ronin]

I GIVE THIS AS A GIFT, SINCE THE FAKE SEEMS TO FEEL HE IS DA REAL, WITH HIS PERFECT BO STANCE.

WHAT DO YOU SEE WRONG WITH IT? WHY IS IT PERFECT OR WHY IS IT NOT PERFECT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO8-1...feature=relmfu

Hmmm, well, that depends on a few things BUT off the top of my head:
Wrong: too low ( personal though, not all may see it that way)
Too narrow ( rear leg needs to be out more)
Too stiff (legs) and too erect ( torso) but some may argue with the torso part.
Front foot is not lined up correct ( again some may argue that depending on the style and purpose of the stance).
Right: Front knee is NOT extending past the front foot/toes.

[Lucas]

its weird because his rear leg looks like his knee is locked. thats a big no no unless you're a modern performance guy.

[Lucas]

Actually, I blame Lucas for starting this in the first place cause I'm pretty sure he was trolling.

I never troll. Ever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

its weird because his rear leg looks like his knee is locked. thats a big no no unless you're a modern performance guy.

Indeed, it seems to be a performance stance or a training stance, both are done, typically, with an over-exaggeration with no regard for combat application.

[tattooedmonk]

I tried to clue him in on a more constructive level about what's wrong with his stances, he at least said thanks,

[David Jamieson]

He cherry picked something so fundamentally wrong it points to your limited knowledge on the subject, so perhaps you should be the one to stop chest beating and inferring we all should be as experienced as you before making comments

Here’s what I mean by your chest beating and picking on peoples as you see it lack of knowledge
As for this (if I was you id take a look in the mirror before making statements like this)

You keep going on and on about how ironfist doesn’t have any TCMA knowledge so shouldn’t be speaking on the subject, yet cant refute anything he says about how misguided you were on one of your key points honestly its funny

Ironfist went into a lengthy post as to why you were so wrong to which your reply to his detailed point was...so you are against resistance training, great come back why to simply hold your hand up and say sorry I was wrong I don’t know what im talking about

Dude, all this banal crap you're trying to pin on me is your own behaviour.

Check yourself.