Early Tanglangquan in Taiwan

[Tainan Mantis]

Then again, I heard of people in Taiwan who added some tornado kicks to the end of luan jie to make it look better (dont quote me on that though, its just hearsay)

You can see video of Su Kunming (Su Yuzhang) doing Luanjie where he hads some kicks at the end, filmed in 1964 in Taiwan.

There is also a video I have seen (which I don't have) of Wang Songting doing Luanjie. It seems as though he did not pass it on to anyone who later became a teacher. That was part of what you might call his closed -door curriculum.

It is straight Luanjie, with tucked in elbows and hunched over back.

[B.Tunks]

Wang Songting was also not Qixing Tanglang.

[mooyingmantis]

Fact,One there is public and private kung-fu in china and taiwan. Fact,Two Master's Huo Chi Kwang,Chang Tung Sheng,Liu Yun Chiao are all from the Mainland China;however relocated to taiwan to live and teach high level's of Boxing to serious students.

I don't disagree with you on this. I can't understand why this isn't sinking in. BTW, at least two of the masters you mentioned relocated because of their ties with the ROC.

Always remember mooyingmantis you are a westerner trying to train with chinese,so it will many years before you see real boxing if at All. you must have the real keys to the arts. That's the Facts. be well. NM.

Have seen it and have trained it for over forty years bro. This is not my first dealings with the "Chinese". LOL!

Actually what you said was:

>Those left on the Mainland after the civil war were killed, re-educated, worked for the PRC, or went into hiding. Later, the PRC sponsored people to create a quasi-martial arts/gymnastic curriculum to promote health and serve as a national sport.

I don't think Zhou Zhendong will have a problem with this statement, since this was exactly what he saw and experienced.

Xiaoyao conducted an interview with Master Zhou in which Master Zhou described having to train secretly at night to avoid persecution by the Communists.

I don't think Will will mind me quoting it here:

Shifu, I understand you continued your training into the Cultural Revolution, was that possible? Didn’t people get persecuted for that?

Actually my master was a quiet man. He didn’t participate in public events or political groups, so he avoided persecution. Other masters however were persecuted severely and often sent to the countryside to do forced labour (seen to the right). I used to visit my master after he finished work on the weekends and we would train in the darkness of night, making sure nobody watched out the windows. Then, I would go away and train by myself in a quiet place in the hills to avoid being seen.

Wang Songting was also not Qixing Tanglang.

According to the Mantis Cave, Wang trained in Meihua Tanglangquan, Qixing Tanglangquan and Changquan. I initially listed him as qixing tanglangquan to show that most major styles of tanglangquan were represented in Taiwan.

[B.Tunks]

Tanglang did not become extinct under the communists, even during the CR. Yes, many masters died but most did not. Many were sent to prison or forced labour camps but their minds were not erased and many continued to teach and train. The biggest tangible loss (apart from life) was quan pu and weapons and even there, elements of the oldest Tanglang quan pu survived in China.

In the CR. There were perpetrators and victims on all sides. It is simply not accurate to label an entire family as being in one position or the other. Everyone was effected. People still use events or alleged events in the CR to tarnish people's name today. It's up to those that were there to deal with, not us. I think the comments were irresponsible. You can make up your own mind though, after you go to China and talk to the people who actually lived through it.

Not all major Tanglang styles were represented in Taiwan. Hardly any Qixing at all until after Wong Honfan's books. Almost all Meihua or Meihua derivatives along with one stream of Liuhe. Apart from Long Fist, Wang Songting specialised in the the elements of Tanglang that were found in the curriculum of the Qingdao Guoshuguan and his two main TL teachers were MH.

[xiao yao]

Zhou Shifu had told me that before the 1960s, there were tons of kung fu schools in Yantai. He said the atmosphere was very different, a lot more challenges going on between schools and rivalries. The students too trained harder back then. In his eyes, the 1930s were the golden age for kung fu.

Now there is a revival. People are exchanging ideas more and opening schools again. but, the problem still lies in the countries policy of economic development driving everything. it leaves little space for people to restore culture. young people have so much pressure from study, adults are expected to work hard at their jobs and raise their family. people often ask me why i learn kung fu, when i say just coz i like it, they dont seem to understand i just do something coz i like it, they think i should have my future or my family in mind......

brendan, would you say that seems accurate from what you have seen too?

[xiao yao]

also, i agree you cant label a family strictly pro or anti government. hao bin was persecuted in the cultural revolution.

most chinese people who are party members nowadays are purely for their own ends. its easier to get things done. like if you want a promotion at work, or if they wanted to start an association or school. its just a form of social networking, nobody cares about marxism.

[mooyingmantis]

Tanglang did not become extinct under the communists, even during the CR. Yes, many masters died but most did not. Many were sent to prison or forced labour camps but their minds were not erased and many continued to teach and train. The biggest tangible loss (apart from life) was quan pu and weapons and even there, elements of the oldest Tanglang quan pu survived in China.

I agree and did not say anything to the contrary.

It is simply not accurate to label an entire family as being in one position or the other. Everyone was effected. People still use events or alleged events in the CR to tarnish people's name today. It's up to those that were there to deal with, not us.

This is a good point.

Not all major Tanglang styles were represented in Taiwan. Hardly any Qixing at all until after Wong Honfan's books. Almost all Meihua or Meihua derivatives along with one stream of Liuhe. Apart from Long Fist, Wang Songting specialised in the the elements of Tanglang that were found in the curriculum of the Qingdao Guoshuguan and his two main TL teachers were MH.

Thank you for clearing this up! These comments are so much more informative than: "In short - you got told wrong."

Does anyone know what styles of mantis were taught at the Qingdao Guoshuguan?

[Tainan Mantis]

Not all major Tanglang styles were represented in Taiwan. Hardly any Qixing at all until after Wong Honfan's books.

Based on my research I have found this to be true. But, it implies that there was the study of Mantis from books in Taiwan which was later passed off as having already been a part of the Taiwan Mantis scene.

Decades ago even Li Kunshan was labeled 7*Mantis.

There is nothing that I have seen from Wang Songting's curriculum to call him 7*, nor Gao Daosheng Longfist Tang Lang.

[YouKnowWho]

You can see video of Su Kunming (Su Yuzhang) doing Luanjie where he hads some kicks at the end, filmed in 1964 in Taiwan.

You must be one of the old timers that still remember Su Kunming was Su Yuzhang original name before he changed it.

I once demo Luanjie and Da Baji in the 2nd 济南Jinan tournament when Su was there. He walked to me and said, "You just did my forms".

I also met 孙德龙(Sun De Lon) in that tournament. I like the beginning part of his Luanjie. I had changed my Luanjie since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPSnyhZfR1E

[mooyingmantis]

Apart from Long Fist, Wang Songting specialised in the the elements of Tanglang that were found in the curriculum of the Qingdao Guoshuguan and his two main TL teachers were MH.

Brendan,
I was just reading your interview with Arnold Buenviaje at your website. In the interview, Arnold listed a few Taiwanese tanglangquan instructors. I found it interesting that he referred to Wang Songting as a Qixing Tanglang instructor.

There is also Liang Ji Ci who moved to the Philippines, where he taught Tanglang. His Tanglang came from different Taiwan masters like Liuhe Tanglang Zhang Xiang Shan, Babu Tanglang Wei Xiao Tang, Taiji Tanglang Liu Zu Yuan and Qixing Tanglang Wang Song Ting...

[B.Tunks]

WST was known as QX (by some) only in Taiwan, just as Li Kunshan was known as QX only in Taiwan. WST is not listed in any official Qixing genealogy. He did know some QXTL, the same material common to others in Qingdao Guoshuguan.

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is Tang Lang as done in Taiwan today. The action starts at around 00:50.
Shifu Shi Zhengzhong, now 65, also demonstates 2nd Zhai Yao.

But, the version of Mei Hua Lu, the second form shown looks pretty solid, Marcio from Brasil.

Reportagem Peng Lai Brasil Mestre Shi Zheng Zhong - TV Taiwan - 蓬萊巴西梅花螳螂拳

[mooyingmantis]

WST was known as QX (by some) only in Taiwan, just as Li Kunshan was known as QX only in Taiwan. WST is not listed in any official Qixing genealogy. He did know some QXTL, the same material common to others in Qingdao Guoshuguan.

Interesting! I wonder how everything got so confused there?

Here is Tang Lang as done in Taiwan today. The action starts at around 00:50.
Shifu Shi Zhengzhong, now 65, also demonstates 2nd Zhai Yao.

But, the version of Mei Hua Lu, the second form shown looks pretty solid, Marcio from Brasil.

Reportagem Peng Lai Brasil Mestre Shi Zheng Zhong - TV Taiwan - 蓬萊巴西梅花螳螂拳

Kevin,

Thanks for the input!

The meihualu seems to have a very unique signature. Very different from how I have seen it performed by Hong Kong and Mainland mantis families.

Since you have trained in both Taiwan and the Mainland, I think you probably have the most expertise on the subject of mantis in both locations. What differences and similarities do you see between how mantis is taught or played in each location?

[MightyB]

First of all, all of us will have bias based on where or how we've learned Mantis. With that being said, here's my biased opinion:

From watching the videos and basing it on my experience... Taiwanese Mantis focus more on the sun yin (sp) or body movement of the swallow than both Mainland and HK. Side note, the mantis theory for effective technique using bo fat, sun yin, sau fat (sp?) (foot movement plus body movement control coordinates with hand technique). IMO - they hyper focus on it because they seem to sway too much for my personal taste (not saying it's a good or bad thing, just my bias on where I've learned remember).

The mainland does have more lean into it than HK. It's not the same sway or lean as Taiwanese. Mainland leans into it similar to how Wu Style Tai Chi leans into a technique or strike. Although they certainly have more waist leaning than HK, I don't feel that theirs is extra or wasted movement, it's just to put a little more oomph into the technique, but very focused on delivering the oomf.

HK isn't stiff if done correctly, but like my perception of Xing Yi or Chen Style Tai Chi, all power starts at the ground and is generated through torque in the waste. There is no leaning, but the torque is tremendous allowing a 130lbs man to hit you with 130lbs of their weight. Therefore an HK practitioner needs the strong legs and loose of hips. If they don't develop those attributes, then they'll be stiff and less powerful.

[Tainan Mantis]

Since you have trained in both Taiwan and the Mainland, I think you probably have the most expertise on the subject of mantis in both locations.

Mighty B gave a good assessment.
There are many things not 'online' but his points are good.