Early Tanglangquan in Taiwan

[Tainan Mantis]

You must be one of the old timers that still remember Su Kunming was Su Yuzhang original name before he changed it.

It happened before my time, I didn't get to Tainan until 1989, but I have heard all the stories and I have his books from before his training with Gao Daosheng and subsequent travel overseas.

Thanks for posting the clip.

[Crushing Step]

If you ask most mainland masters, they dont think much of kung fu in Taiwan or HK.

This likely has a lot to do with national pride. Taiwan didn't conform to communist China, and HK was an English colony. In my own travels to China, I heard the national pride in nearly every conversation with my translator/ Chinese teacher.

[xiao yao]

after 6 years of living here, i dont believe their "national pride" is anything more than a surface act

[mantid1]

It seems this post has gone from "these are masters that went to Taiwan"....into a comparison of Mainland and Taiwan mantis.

Many use "forms" for this comparison. This may be similar to comparing the tea pots but never really tasting of the tea for substance.

We all know that the health benefits are one of the most important reasons for doing CMA.....and for the Chinese, preserving the culture may be at the top of the list. For these reasons I would agree comparing forms or some two person drills will be just fine.

But some people take the "Martial" part more seriously than others. You cant do a comparison of this by showing people doing some nice forms.

The only way to make this comparison would be to watch them fight (full contact, not trying to kill each other) against someone from their own style and then someone who does not have "formal" training. After this have them fight someone from the opposing style....same time in training, weight, height and similar skill.

For the last fight my guess would be, if they are both effective fighters, there would not be much difference in "style". Talking about mantis here......not a mantis guy fighting someone from a style that only kicks to the head and does not grab....wouldnt be much of a compaison.

You could do the same comparison with different lines of Hung Ga, Choy li fut, TKD...bottom line is they would have to fight.

Now all we need is someone who teaches mainland Mantis and someone who teaches a mantis system out of Taiwan.

In closing, I would like to say that I have had a few students who turned out to be fairly good fighters. But, I have to admit that they would have been good fighters with any credible system they may have picked.... myself and my "system" had little to do with it

[OTD]

Hello Everyone:

I am researching the Clan Surname Wang and wondering if any of the below named could have relocated in Tiawan approximate dates shown
---------------- Circa
Wang, Zi Jiu -1864
Wang, Zhen Yuan - 1885
Wang, Che Chiu - 1900

Thanks in advance for any and all Information

OTD

[xiao yao]

a lot of branches of mantis sprung up in taiwan that cant be found in the mainland, such as mimen, babu and changquan tanglang. i dont know much about these branches, but would it be fair to say taiwanese mantis has taken on more outside influences?

[r.(shaolin)]

" If you ask most mainland masters, they dont think much of kung fu in Taiwan or HK."

Most of these 'masters' were not even born in 1949 and in the 80s were still just little children – yet they claim to represent pre 1949 kungfu, thats funny, very, very funny.

r.

[xiao yao]

im sure you could come here and tell them that

[mantid1]

what is REAL Kung Fu?

When I first saw KF forms out of Taiwan being performed I thought that it must have had an Okinawan influence in there somewhere. That would be ironic, huh?

That would go along with the story I once heard of a group of Okinawan pirtates that were ship wrecked on the shores of Taiwan in 1963 and passed on their fighting style. That would correlate with the beatles invasion which makes sense to me.

I still think you should compare the actual fighting side of things to get to the truth. Actually watch them apply their tecnique not just doing forms.

[mooyingmantis]

a lot of branches of mantis sprung up in taiwan that cant be found in the mainland, such as mimen, babu and changquan tanglang. i dont know much about these branches, but would it be fair to say taiwanese mantis has taken on more outside influences?

Yet, all these influences began before they ever hit the shores of Taiwan. If anything, they crystalized into their modern form after arriving in Taiwan. But the blending of styles began on the Mainland.

When I first saw KF forms out of Taiwan being performed I thought that it must have had an Okinawan influence in there somewhere. That would be ironic, huh?

Dave,
Nothing I have seen in Taiwanese mantis would cause me to think that. Is there a specific style to which you are referring?

I still think you should compare the actual fighting side of things to get to the truth. Actually watch them apply their tecnique not just doing forms.

Good point!

[mantid1]

It was mainly the baji I was referring to...I have also seen some of that "flavor" come out in some of the mantis performances from taiwan.

When I first saw it years ago coming from an okinawan MA background. Mainly the way the expressed the power in the forms. Found int interesting. Have done a lot of research since then.

I think comparing forms other than an "art" view point isnt much help.

[Jimbo]

In Taiwan, various styles of Fujian Crane are popular, even more so outside of Taipei. There is also a connection between some of Okinawan karate and such styles. But in the years I lived in Taiwan, I never saw anyone mix the flavor of a crane style with the northern mantis, at least regarding forms. A pretty common factor among many northern stylists, Mantis included, was at least some Chang Chuan (long fist) at the basic level.

As for the Baji flavor in Mantis sets, that was/is common among students of the Wu Tan Institute.

[YouKnowWho]

As for the Baji flavor in Mantis sets, that was/is common among students of the Wu Tan Institute.

I believe Su Yu Chang was the only person who had mixed Baji and mantis in Taiwan.

[Jimbo]

I believe Su Yu Chang was the only person who had mixed Baji and mantis in Taiwan.

When I lived there, mid-1980s to '93, Su Yu-Chang (Su Kun-Ming?) was not in Taiwan. My Mantis teacher had a former Wu Tan classmate who taught Baji, Mantis, and probably also Bagua, etc. My teacher's classmate, and his students, performed their Mantis with a Baji flavor. I'd seen others, some who trained with us, who also did it the same way. My own teacher did not use Baji flavor in his Mantis, in form or application.

I don't know whether they did their Mantis that way because of influence related to Su Yu-Chang; or because their main focus was Baji, and it affected the way they did everything else.

[Jimbo]

I'm sure that's what it is. Students from Wu Tan, or learning from teachers certified by Wu Tan, were the only ones in Taiwan who did Mantis with Baji flavor.