Fak Sao ??

[GlennR]

Seriously, just look at this thread

People can't even debate the use of a single character dude without taking potshots at eachother, and I got a whole lot more characters to look at and translate! I think this place is, like the magazine itself, beyond help unfortunately...

Spencer, you had the 1st of the potshots as Phil mentioned

The mockery started with the following remark you made.
"Just my opinion, but whisking hand sounds like you are making cakes, and this is not what I do "
All I did was ask for the Chinese character.

So whats your point?

Personally, I would prefer a 'video only' forum where words are exchanged with some decent footage

FWIW i like the written word. It challenges the mind a bit more to both convey and understand eachothers ideas, its called effort, and i cant help thinking that we are about to lose some great writing skills over the next few generations.

So all you want is video clips?

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, you had the 1st of the potshots as Phil mentioned

You see! Some people on this forum say I have no sense of humour, yet now you all think that by saying I don't have a 'whisking hand coz I don't bake cakes' is an insult or potshot??!! Grow up and smile every now and again people...

So whats your point?

What is the correct character for Faksau? Still this hasn't been addressed.

I shared a character that was ingnored actually, so I removed it. Then we have the varied translations, where I have already said I prefer 'whipping hand' but again no other input from anyone else after this, just slight digs at my own Sigungs learning and so on by both Phil and Joy, who should know better imho.

Then again, maybe they were just having a laugh too??!! Although I don't see that do you?

So all you want is video clips?

Of course, I love the written word too and I have always shared my identity since my earliest posts so this is why I would prefer to see people demonstrate and explain in videos more. Some will never put up a clip of themselves because they talk more than train unfortunately.

You will be surprised how young and inexperienced some posters can be and I think that a 'show and do' attitude could do this place the world of good.

[GlennR]

You see! Some people on this forum say I have no sense of humour, yet now you all think that by saying I don't have a 'whisking hand coz I don't bake cakes' is an insult or potshot??!! Grow up and smile every now and again people...

Well it did come across as a smarta55 comment ,subsequently explaining your sense of humour was fine until you tell everyone to "grow up"

What is the correct character for Faksau? Still this hasn't been addressed.

Maybe no one knows

I shared a character that was ingnored actually, so I removed it.

Why?

Then we have the varied translations, where I have already said I prefer 'whipping hand' but again no other input from anyone else after this, just slight digs at my own Sigungs learning and so on by both Phil and Joy, who should know better imho.

Better slight digs than big ones i guess

Of course, I love the written word too and I have always shared my identity since my earliest posts so this is why I would prefer to see people demonstrate and explain in videos more. Some will never put up a clip of themselves because they talk more than train unfortunately.

I actually dont put a clip up because i AM too busy training

[LoneTiger108]

Maybe no one knows

Well if this is the case, then nobody here actually knows Biu Jee which may be more possible than I first thought.

I actually dont put a clip up because i AM too busy training

Sorry but that's the worst excuse in the world, especially if you are going to be throwing your own opinions around at people that DO try and post some clips.

It takes less effort than you think to set up a camera on a tripod and let it run while you train and it's a very good self learning tool imho

[wingchunIan]

Maybe no one knows

Or maybe like me they don't care......

[GlennR]

Well if this is the case, then nobody here actually knows Biu Jee which may be more possible than I first thought.

Id suggest that there's been many boxing champions that couldnt read or write over the years, are you suggesting that because they couldnt spell 'hook" that they couldnt do/understand the technique??

You get too hung up on everything..... except the fighting part IMO

Sorry but that's the worst excuse in the world, especially if you are going to be throwing your own opinions around at people that DO try and post some clips.

I dont pretty much, unless its some drivel that Hendrick puts up to prove snake-emei-5layer-ykm-internalcombustion nonsense.

Go back and have a look.

It takes less effort than you think to set up a camera on a tripod and let it run while you train and it's a very good self learning tool imho

Youre probably right, but all id put up is sparring which you dont seem to believe in or practice..... so what would be the point?

[SAAMAG]

The real question isn't the "fak sao" technique...but the "fak yoo" technique. When someone attacks with a punch....BAM--FAK YOO! If they attack with a kick "BAM BAM--FAK YOO TWO!"

[Ozzy Dave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA

or google wong shon leung's biu jee
Re: WSL's biu jee. At 1.58 WSL does what some-including my line calls fak sao. Others may use a different name. The original reference that got another set of irrelevant commnets started was Phil's simple question/request regarding the chinese character(s) for fak sao.

That's called man sau in WSL line, difference being (for WSL line as I understand it) that it's a diagonal upward movement while fak sao is horizontal or even sightly downward.

I would say the name is all in the expected application for Bil Jee and with the emphasis on emergency techniques, in WSL Bil Jee at least, I can appreciate the naming convention.

I personally think too much is made of technique names expecially in trying to determine the absolute provenance which to me is the ultimate tail chasing exercise. Its been my experience that they simply tend to change over time within a certain degree depending on the emphasis of the Sifu, its the application that's important.

Dave

[LoneTiger108]

Id suggest that there's been many boxing champions that couldnt read or write over the years, are you suggesting that because they couldnt spell 'hook" that they couldnt do/understand the technique??

Not a good comparison in my opinion. Wing Chun isn't boxing. Using the finger/palm/fist methods all have specific detail that you just do not have in boxing. And I have nver said you need to be able to understand all this mumbo jumbo to fight. It's actually about teaching, and preserving the art/system as it is handed down.

Personally I don't believe in teaching from memory alone. It's actually impossible and causes too much variation. This happens today, especially in the seminar rich students who literally are picking up sansau after sansau without (maybe) ever experiencing the actual foundation training of the system.

Youre probably right, but all id put up is sparring which you dont seem to believe in or practice..... so what would be the point?

I love to see decent sparring clips, as long as they stay true to Wing Chun foundation concepts. I just rarely see examples of that here. I also love sansau applications too, and like most I do prefer to see methods being used against varied scenarios so don't think because I promote the art over the fight that I wouldn't be interested.

Mind you, if you're gonna be rolling around on the floor and wrestling I might lose interest pretty quickly

[LoneTiger108]

That's called man sau in WSL line, difference being (for WSL line as I understand it) that it's a diagonal upward movement while fak sao is horizontal or even sightly downward.

I would say the name is all in the expected application for Bil Jee and with the emphasis on emergency techniques, in WSL Bil Jee at least, I can appreciate the naming convention.

Excellent post and good reasoning imho.

... its the application that's important.

This is why I believe correct terms are important because in essence the proper name of a technical application is how we remind ourselves how/why it is applied in such a way.

Another example is that we don't call a hook a jab in boxing because they're totally different methods with different mechanics and purpose.

In other words, if you believe Biu Jee to be an emergency form it makes total sense that EVERY set is actually a Munsau/Asking Hand of sorts... just an idea.

[GlennR]

Not a good comparison in my opinion. Wing Chun isn't boxing. Using the finger/palm/fist methods all have specific detail that you just do not have in boxing.

Thats uneducated in boxing at best, but at worst comes across as condescending from a "superior martial intellect".
That statement is nonsense Spencer, research what you comment, from both sides, before you make a comparison.

And I have nver said you need to be able to understand all this mumbo jumbo to fight. It's actually about teaching, and preserving the art/system as it is handed down.

Do some research on both boxing trainers AND Asian martial art trainers. Many (if not most) could not read or write in the old days, yet we bask in their infamy... how did their illiterately affect their teaching?

Personally I don't believe in teaching from memory alone. It's actually impossible and causes too much variation. This happens today, especially in the seminar rich students who literally are picking up sansau after sansau without (maybe) ever experiencing the actual foundation training of the system.

Its all about memory and the training from that.
You cant get that from photo's, videos or text

I love to see decent sparring clips, as long as they stay true to Wing Chun foundation concepts.

Which are in comparison to, lets say for arguments sake, boxing.

I just rarely see examples of that here. I also love sansau applications too, and like most I do prefer to see methods being used against varied scenarios so don't think because I promote the art over the fight that I wouldn't be interested.

And what is the point of the art before fighting?

Mind you, if you're gonna be rolling around on the floor and wrestling I might lose interest pretty quickly

I love a good roll!!!!

[LoneTiger108]

Thats uneducated in boxing at best, but at worst comes across as condescending from a "superior martial intellect".
That statement is nonsense Spencer, research what you comment, from both sides, before you make a comparison.

Am I uneducated because I presume you are talking of pro competitive boxing where we all strap up and wear gloves so the contact we make is with the front of our fists?

How am I to know you are referring to pugilism and pre-glove bare knuckle boxing man!?! Because in that sense there are many similarities to Wing Chun...

With everything else about illiterate teachers, and memory as the way to go for future teachers I think I will agree to disagree my friend. This is how we end up in a forum with varied understandings of a single chinese character!

As much as I respect the past and how things might have been done, I learnt Wing Chun by learning the Chinese language (and I aint 100% literate in that lol!) and so I try as best I can to share this way over just relying on memory alone.

[GlennR]

Am I uneducated because I presume you are talking of pro competitive boxing where we all strap up and wear gloves so the contact we make is with the front of our fists?

.

Yes, yes you are uneducated in it. Relying just on the front of the fists ,as you put it ,doesn't lessen it one bit. If you are seriously interested in the subtle difference in styles, different methods of power generation etc let me know and ill point you in the right direction.

How am I to know you are referring to pugilism and pre-glove bare knuckle boxing man!?!

Difference being to modern boxing?

Because in that sense there are many similarities to Wing Chun

Now this is good, seriously. What do you see in old school boxing that relates to WC?
Finally, something about fighting.

With everything else about illiterate teachers, and memory as the way to go for future teachers I think I will agree to disagree my friend. This is how we end up in a forum with varied understandings of a single chinese character!

Give me an illiterate knowledgeable trainer to a symbol anytime!

As much as I respect the past and how things might have been done, I learnt Wing Chun by learning the Chinese language (and I aint 100% literate in that lol!) and so I try as best I can to share this way over just relying on memory alone.

I barely know a word of chinese........ does that make you a better trainer than me?

[LoneTiger108]

I barely know a word of chinese........ does that make you a better trainer than me?

Well... I guess it would if someone wanted to practise how I practised Wing Chun But if they liked your method, then you would be first choice of course...

Now this is good, seriously. What do you see in old school boxing that relates to WC?
Finally, something about fighting.

Hey don't get your hopes up! I'm only a beginner

Fighting, for me, is natural. It's a natural ability to be remorseless in attack. It can be learnt, to an extent, but there's a natural element to it that you either have or don't have. I believe I have that. I'm told I definitely have that. And I have seen the results first hand of having that temperment out of control too so I'm much more aware of how to control that these days.

I do not know enough about early boxing development to really comment on it's similarities to Wing Chun, but I do know they both seemed to appear in England and China at the same time in history, so that tells me something.

My Grandad taught me to put up my fists, and both were Army Boxers and pretty crazy dudes when they were in service. But I don't talk about that because that's my blood family dude and my memories for me for me and my son and daughter. They also taught me to never fight

[JPinAZ]

That's called man sau in WSL line, difference being (for WSL line as I understand it) that it's a diagonal upward movement while fak sao is horizontal or even sightly downward.

Fak sau can be any of 3 directions - horizontal, vertical or diagonal. It really depends on the situation and how space needs to be swept.
I would call that fak sau per the definition of the technique name - to wisk/sweep. Regardless of lineage, man sau typically already has facing, where fak sau is typically no facing (no shape, target shadow), which is more for emergencies.

I would say the name is all in the expected application for Bil Jee and with the emphasis on emergency techniques, in WSL Bil Jee at least, I can appreciate the naming convention.

Even more to my point, since you're talking about biu jee's emphasis on emergency techniques, I'd say this falls into the category of no shape, target shadow - so fak sau sweeping away from center to cover the shadow makes a lot more sense.

I personally think too much is made of technique names expecially in trying to determine the absolute provenance which to me is the ultimate tail chasing exercise. Its been my experience that they simply tend to change over time within a certain degree depending on the emphasis of the Sifu, its the application that's important.

Dave

I totally agree way to much emphasis is put on the name of a technique. IMO, it's the concepts/principles that drives them that is more far important. But where we differ is these are thing that no sifu could/should change. You can't change physics or nature