Fak Sao ??

[JPinAZ]

going back thru this thread, I realize I actually quoted the wrong clips in my earlier reply to Joy and was looking at the wrong section of the clip on one anyway, which lead me into a ngoi jut sau tangent I shouldn't have gone on. I think I was sleep deprived and really missed the boat on this, my apologies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzfTqU_bIZg

In the video above you will see a decent version of the biu jee that I do.
The fak sao section is after the flying elbows and the gan jam sections

Agreed on the clips showing fak saus in both quotes above and below.
And yes, WSL is doing fak sau below. Someone mentioned WSL does not have fak sau, I've heard the opposite from several WSL guys, and you can see them clearly in the clip below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA

or google wong shon leung's biu jee
Re: WSL's biu jee. At 1.58 WSL does what some-including my line calls fak sao. Others may use a different name. The original reference that got another set of irrelevant commnets started was Phil's simple question/request regarding the chinese character(s) for fak sao.

[Vajramusti]

going back thru this thread, I realize I actually quoted the wrong clips in my earlier reply to Joy and was looking at the wrong section of the clip on one anyway, which lead me into a ngoi jut sau tangent I shouldn't have gone on. I think I was sleep deprived and really missed the boat on this, my apologies.



Agreed on the clips showing fak saus in both quotes above and below.
And yes, WSL is doing fak sau below. Someone mentioned WSL does not have fak sau, I've heard the opposite from several WSL guys, and you can see them clearly in the clip below.

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Understandable. No problem. I wondered how jut sao got into the discussion- but I chose not to comment.
The fak motion is there in biu jee and the bot jam do work-fak do. Many applications are possible imo.

[Yoshiyahu]

Each Lineage is different...Even among WSL and others various Sifus interpret the forms differently...or borrow from other wing chun people they have met...In either case if your WC doesn't possess the fak sao or one of your forms omitts it dont bash the next guy for having one techinique more than you....

At the end of the day when you utilize Fak Sao in actual sparring it wont be while doing Siu Lien Tao...

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Understandable. No problem. I wondered how jut sao got into the discussion- but I chose not to comment.
The fak motion is there in biu jee and the bot jam do work-fak do. Many applications are possible imo.

[Ozzy Dave]

Fak sau can be any of 3 directions - horizontal, vertical or diagonal. It really depends on the situation and how space needs to be swept.
I would call that fak sau per the definition of the technique name - to wisk/sweep.

Yeah, not disagreeing just stating the terminology as I was taught.

Regardless of lineage, man sau typically already has facing, where fak sau is typically no facing (no shape, target shadow), which is more for emergencies.

Disagree here which is why I guess I prefer man sao as the term for the technique in Bil Gee since it is a facing movement as you turn into the opponent to generate force and regain the line. To gain force with fak sao you generally have to turn away slightly i.e. open the shoulder area like you do with a punch from a turning stance, so for me that is why its done as it is in SLT. In any case I see them as two distinct techniques.

I totally agree way to much emphasis is put on the name of a technique. IMO, it's the concepts/principles that drives them that is more far important. But where we differ is these are thing that no sifu could/should change. You can't change physics or nature

Sifu don't change the concepts just find personalised refinements in applying them, its important to make this point so we avoid all this "my Sifu's style is the original, true, whatever" BS.

Dave

[Vajramusti]

Man sao=asking hand

Different from fak sao.

[Phil Redmond]

Man sao=asking hand

Different from fak sao.

What Joy said..

[Ozzy Dave]

Man sao=asking hand

Different from fak sao.

Agree but in WSL Line the technique you pointed out in Wong Sifu's Bil Gee is referred to as "asking hand" not fak sao and the application (again for WSL line) corresponds with that designation.

If others refer to it as fak sao I don't have a problem, just trying to clear up things as regards WSL since people have been saying all sorts of things...

Dave

[Vajramusti]

Agree but in WSL Line the technique you pointed out in Wong Sifu's Bil Gee is referred to as "asking hand" not fak sao and the application (again for WSL line) corresponds with that designation.

If others refer to it as fak sao I don't have a problem, just trying to clear up things as regards WSL since people have been saying all sorts of things...

Dave

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Are you sure that WSL himself regularly called that motion in the biu jee form- man sao. In any case -my interest
in the discussion was on the motion- by whatever name different lineages may use.

[Phil Redmond]

Agree but in WSL Line the technique you pointed out in Wong Sifu's Bil Gee is referred to as "asking hand" not fak sao and the application (again for WSL line) corresponds with that designation.

If others refer to it as fak sao I don't have a problem, just trying to clear up things as regards WSL since people have been saying all sorts of things...

Dave

Dave, did you hear directly from WSL or are you referring to something taught to you?
I ask because 10 people can be in the same room, hear the same conversation and report the conversation differently. Dogma is really bad for Wing Chun. btw, you could be right but do you get my point?

[Ozzy Dave]

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Are you sure that WSL himself regularly called that motion in the biu jee form- man sao. In any case -my interest
in the discussion was on the motion- by whatever name different lineages may use.

Can't be completely sure of course however, I'm quite sure for instance David Peterson calls it that - actually would be a good question for David as his Chinese language is first class.

Out of my interest on the motion, what is the Bill Gee 'fak sao' application in Fong Sifu's school?

For my part from WSL perspective it was shown as a recovery from a surprise attack from the side or rear.

Dave

[Ozzy Dave]

Dave, did you hear directly from WSL or are you referring to something taught to you?
I ask because 10 people can be in the same room, hear the same conversation and report the conversation differently. Dogma is really bad for Wing Chun. btw, you could be right but do you get my point?

Hi Phil, yeah get your point and for my part not trying to spread dogma or division, I actually agree with the 'we are all one family' type of thinking.

Its just how I remember being taught and no, didn't here it from WSL but I presume my Sifu would have as was a WSL student.

Any how the semantics aside I'm more interested in the usage, like I said was taught to me as a recovery technique from a side or rear attack - how do you teach it if I may ask?

Dave

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrLj8RazScA

[Vajramusti]

Can't be completely sure of course however, I'm quite sure for instance David Peterson calls it that - actually would be a good question for David as his Chinese language is first class.

Out of my interest on the motion, what is the Bill Gee 'fak sao' application in Fong Sifu's school?

For my part from WSL perspective it was shown as a recovery from a surprise attack from the side or rear.

Dave

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I respect David Peterson but I would be interested in hearing whether any one heard WSL himself call
that movement in the form as man sao. One can use different postures and stances for man sao-asking hand purposes including an adjusted fak sao... but an aligned double wu or a jong and a wu can also serve a man sao function. Man sao to me is a function while several different motions as applications can serve that function.

Per my long standing perspective, I don't speak for Fong sifu or his other students.But I try to understand and stay true to concepts and not embarrass my family.. In the details, individuals can use the same concepts and principles but be varied in their applications depending
on various factors including skills, alertness/awareness, timing etc. Hence the distinction between development and application. At the developmental level the fak sao should be done properly as in the biu jee form.( in my learning, practice and teaching). Then with san sik free hand drills solo and also with partner one develops application- further enhanced via chi sao in all it's variations.

Yes, fak sao can be used against a close quarters attack from the back or side continuing into unbalancing the opponent for a throw or a strike using huen ma.For development the elbow is not finished in a bent position but in application it is- for energy conservation and minimizing chances of the elbow being broken or controlled. With chum kiu feet motions, fak sao can also (with development of skills) be used frontally against several different kinds of strikes, including some CLF types or overhand boxing strike or used with biu ma to control low incoming attacks.

I think that we can listen to what others do and not sink to name calling pr incivility in discussion- so far so good on this part of the thread with Phil and Ozzy etc.

[JPinAZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrLj8RazScA

Not sure what your point is behind this video? Can you please tell us your idea of it's relevance?

IMO, while the clip has 'fak sau' in the title, I didn't see what I would call a fak sau at all. Besides all the bad facing, poor structure and 'grabbing', in the beginning of the clip I did see something more akin to saat geng sau being used.

[JPinAZ]

Regarding Man Sau vs Fak Sau.

From my experience in Ip Man WC, Man sau, or 'asking hand' is more of a Bai Jong setup posting structure vs an actual 'action'. If I understand correctly, it is a way to line up your guard hands while facing your opponent. I have heard some say man sau is also used for engagement as well, but maybe some of the long-time IP guys can comment further?
And the reason I say this is from my IM WC experience is because in HFY we do not really talk about or use the term Man Sau. Again, this setup is covered in our first of 5 elemental battle arrays, Bai Jong. I believe TWC has a similar idea to this in the first of their 5 stages of combat (?)
Either way, I would say the kiut that dictates Man Sau is "Have Shape, Target Shape" (Or Have Shape, Keep Shape depending on how it's translated).

Per my shared ideas earlier, from my understanding of the system fak sau is used to sweep space when an attack is coming from the shadow off center. Whether it's a punch you catch out of the corner of your eye, or when you feel contact from the side from say a push or grab. The idea is to cover the shadow area with long arm whipping shapes usually driven by the shoulder muscles PRIOR to adjusting your body position to face the thread. This makes 'fak sau' more of an 'action' with the kiut 'No Shape Target Shadow' dictating the action.

Looking at the kiut and the functions, it's hard for me to understand how anyone would feel these terms fak sau and man sau are interchangable. I fully repsect Ozzy Dave saying that is how he was taught/what he was told and mean no slight toward him, but in WCK, I was always taught to look to the concepts/principles of the system for my answers more-so than to blindly go by 'what sifu said'.