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Thread: Xing Yi - 5 Element Fist and Linking

  1. #1

    Xing Yi - 5 Element Fist and Linking

    Long Story short, I've been cross training Xing Yi with a friend for ~2 months and recently just finished learning the 5 element fists (i think that's what it's called: pi, zuan, pao, beng, heng).

    For the record, this isn't my primary art, but I have heard great things about the 5 element fist even to the point that some of the original famous fighters of XingYi only knew these fists and did not know the 12 animal forms (not sure how true this is though but i can def believe it). That said, I was wondering how different is the linking form from just knowing the 5 fists? Of course I realize that even my understanding of these 5 fists is very small and must grow, but is the "linking form" a "cut and paste" of these 5 fists in a certain order?

    and for the sake of being more specific, i think i remember my friend saying that the XingYi we've been training is Shanxi Che style.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalSpring View Post
    For the record, this isn't my primary art, but I have heard great things about the 5 element fist even to the point that some of the original famous fighters of XingYi only knew these fists and did not know the 12 animal forms (not sure how true this is though but i can def believe it)
    Hi there!
    I'm not familiar with the style of Xing Yi you are doing, but when I was training for a very short stint in Xinyi Liuhe Quan in China, they pretty exclusively trained in 10 (well that was Henan Xinyi ) animal styles. A Xing Yi practioner might completely disagree with me, but I'm not sure if you could leave out the training of the animal forms and still have the essence of the art. Then again, maybe the arts are quite different from one another.
    Maybe it is that they weren't masters of all the animal forms but could still fight with the ones that they were good at. Some of the guys that I saw that focused on a few forms almost exclusively, together with some conditioning, could fight quite well.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Sima Rong View Post
    Hi there!
    I'm not familiar with the style of Xing Yi you are doing, but when I was training for a very short stint in Xinyi Liuhe Quan in China, they pretty exclusively trained in 10 (well that was Henan Xinyi ) animal styles. A Xing Yi practioner might completely disagree with me, but I'm not sure if you could leave out the training of the animal forms and still have the essence of the art. Then again, maybe the arts are quite different from one another.
    Maybe it is that they weren't masters of all the animal forms but could still fight with the ones that they were good at. Some of the guys that I saw that focused on a few forms almost exclusively, together with some conditioning, could fight quite well.
    Hey, thanks for the response!

    I actually did a bunch of reading when I started cross training Xing Yi and I did read about Xinyi Liuhe Quan having 10 animal forms instead of 12. I could totally understand what you're saying though, especially with how perhaps some masters were focused and especially proficient with certain forms or movements as opposed to others.

    The way I was viewing it was based on my "primary" kung fu system, Ving Tsun. When I started, my Sifu and even a lot of other people always said that our first form pretty much contained everything of the style within it. I always used to wonder how that was possible until I kept learning more and realized, "oh, wow, all the stuff is indeed within the first form, but you'd either have to be a super genius or have a ton of experience to figure it out!." I was thinking that perhaps it was like this with Xing Yi and the 5 element fists, which would be great. But then again, perhaps the same applies for most if not all styles/systems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalSpring View Post
    Long Story short, I've been cross training Xing Yi with a friend for ~2 months and recently just finished learning the 5 element fists (i think that's what it's called: pi, zuan, pao, beng, heng).

    For the record, this isn't my primary art, but I have heard great things about the 5 element fist even to the point that some of the original famous fighters of XingYi only knew these fists and did not know the 12 animal forms (not sure how true this is though but i can def believe it). That said, I was wondering how different is the linking form from just knowing the 5 fists? Of course I realize that even my understanding of these 5 fists is very small and must grow, but is the "linking form" a "cut and paste" of these 5 fists in a certain order?

    and for the sake of being more specific, i think i remember my friend saying that the XingYi we've been training is Shanxi Che style.
    Funny you started this thread, as we were just talking Xingyi in another thread. Glad you started this one in the proper place.

    The 5 element fists are building block techniques for the linkage form. While I haven't learned the linkage form, I've seen it enough times and walked through it enough to see the linkages. If you have a strong foundation in the 5 element fists, then the only real new thing to learn with Linkage is transitional movements and direction changes. There are a few additional techniques but nothing too crazy.

    I'll try getting brucereiter to comment on this thread as he's spent a lot of time studying the internal side and we were having a good discussion in another thread.

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    ive been practicing xing yi and honestly i have to disagree with empty cup... the five fist are the foundation of xing yi.. they arent building blocks to the linking form..they are the core of xing yi along with santi shi, and nei gong. i didnt even learn the linking form until i could use the five elements in combination(which is the purpose of the linking form, to learn how to tranform from one fist to the other, like boxing). so i had hours of bag work, in order to use the various fist, and then my sifu would still add something, like the idea that every step in xing yi is kick, every block is a strike, and being able to add that to my training, and then i learned the linking form, but by that time it was more for posterity.. as for people not learning the 12 animals... guo yun shin.. learned the five fist from li lou neng and thought he didnt need anything else, but chi yi chai schooled him and he went back to learn the rest of the system.. you could probably learn the entire xing yi system in 6 months..but it will be empty, you have to train, the five fist, for a long time, along with santi and nei gong, to really make your xing yi strong..everything else will fall into place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalSpring View Post
    The way I was viewing it was based on my "primary" kung fu system, Ving Tsun.
    Xing Yi seems a strange art to cross-train in for a Ving Tsun stylist though. Wouldn't the way you use your body be completely different?

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    Quote Originally Posted by doug maverick View Post
    ive been practicing xing yi and honestly i have to disagree with empty cup... the five fist are the foundation of xing yi.. they arent building blocks to the linking form..they are the core of xing yi along with santi shi, and nei gong. i didnt even learn the linking form until i could use the five elements in combination(which is the purpose of the linking form, to learn how to tranform from one fist to the other, like boxing). so i had hours of bag work, in order to use the various fist, and then my sifu would still add something, like the idea that every step in xing yi is kick, every block is a strike, and being able to add that to my training, and then i learned the linking form, but by that time it was more for posterity.. as for people not learning the 12 animals... guo yun shin.. learned the five fist from li lou neng and thought he didnt need anything else, but chi yi chai schooled him and he went back to learn the rest of the system.. you could probably learn the entire xing yi system in 6 months..but it will be empty, you have to train, the five fist, for a long time, along with santi and nei gong, to really make your xing yi strong..everything else will fall into place.
    I agree with what doug maverick says here. After re-reading my earlier post I see how it got interpreted. The intent of my post was not to downplay the 5 fists but rather to say that the linking form is built from them. I agree the linking form is not the end goal of xingyi.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Cup View Post
    Funny you started this thread, as we were just talking Xingyi in another thread. Glad you started this one in the proper place.

    The 5 element fists are building block techniques for the linkage form. While I haven't learned the linkage form, I've seen it enough times and walked through it enough to see the linkages. If you have a strong foundation in the 5 element fists, then the only real new thing to learn with Linkage is transitional movements and direction changes. There are a few additional techniques but nothing too crazy.

    I'll try getting brucereiter to comment on this thread as he's spent a lot of time studying the internal side and we were having a good discussion in another thread.
    Nice, I'm glad there are other people who are willing to discuss this stuff!

    And thanks, what you mentioned was exactly what i was wondering about. So the linkage form, it's more of a method of using the 5 element theory to "arrange" the fists?
    Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by doug maverick View Post
    ive been practicing xing yi and honestly i have to disagree with empty cup... the five fist are the foundation of xing yi.. they arent building blocks to the linking form..they are the core of xing yi along with santi shi, and nei gong. i didnt even learn the linking form until i could use the five elements in combination(which is the purpose of the linking form, to learn how to tranform from one fist to the other, like boxing). so i had hours of bag work, in order to use the various fist, and then my sifu would still add something, like the idea that every step in xing yi is kick, every block is a strike, and being able to add that to my training, and then i learned the linking form, but by that time it was more for posterity.. as for people not learning the 12 animals... guo yun shin.. learned the five fist from li lou neng and thought he didnt need anything else, but chi yi chai schooled him and he went back to learn the rest of the system.. you could probably learn the entire xing yi system in 6 months..but it will be empty, you have to train, the five fist, for a long time, along with santi and nei gong, to really make your xing yi strong..everything else will fall into place.
    I see what you mean. I def wouldn't doubt that the 5 fists should be trained hard to build a solid foundation. The applications seem endless from the very beginning. Even though you didn't learn the linking form, I'm guessing you were still training the linking concepts to do the combinations? If so, that's pretty exciting to learn as well.
    Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Cup View Post
    I agree with what doug maverick says here. After re-reading my earlier post I see how it got interpreted. The intent of my post was not to downplay the 5 fists but rather to say that the linking form is built from them. I agree the linking form is not the end goal of xingyi.
    oh yea, it's all good. I actually didn't think you were saying that anyways.
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    This form came from 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi). You can see it's more than just 5 elments.

    郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) -> 常东升(Chang Dong Sheng)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfKJyd43is0

    劉緯祥(1864 - 1936), 河北省河間府人。8歲時從劉曉嵐習八極拳,14歲時從形意拳名家郭雲深習形意拳,以後又得名師宋世榮、白西 園兩先生指點。經多年苦修,技遂精湛。以驍勇善鬥,講求實戰稱著武林,時人皆以“劉二彪子”稱之。為近代形 意拳技擊實驗派代表人物之一。馬禮堂的武術老師。
    Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), Hebei hejian Fu people. At the age of 8 from bajiquan Liu Xiaolan acquisition, at the age of 14 from a famous xingyi Quan Guo Yun deep practiced boxing, later famous Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two directions. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor good governance, emphasis on practical martial art, people are "Liu Erbiao". One of representatives of modern boxing art experiment. Horse Hall of martial arts teachers.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sima Rong View Post
    Xing Yi seems a strange art to cross-train in for a Ving Tsun stylist though. Wouldn't the way you use your body be completely different?
    I actually find the little that I know about Xing Yi so far to be very similar to what I've learned in Ving TSun, except it's not really a superficial similarity and I also think the things taught in the system are taught at different times which makes it a bit harder to see as well.

    To explain it briefly and hoping it makes sense;

    I like how Xing Yi trains the stance and movements fairly early, and not just any movement but very powerful forward movement. Traditionally (at least as far as i know), Ving Tsun starts refining single techniques in a static stance before moving. Then I also feel that the 5 fists, even thought they're called "5 fists," they encompass a lot of individual techniques as I know them from Ving Tsun, but of course they do all have their differences. I guess it's hard to notice in the first Ving Tsun form alone, but the other forms and pole training (which imo is similar to a spear kinda) together make the 5 fists seem, not natural, but at least not very foreign or uncomfortable. Instead it's just like "oh wow, this is so cool, if i train this a lot it'll be awesome!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalSpring View Post
    I see what you mean. I def wouldn't doubt that the 5 fists should be trained hard to build a solid foundation. The applications seem endless from the very beginning. Even though you didn't learn the linking form, I'm guessing you were still training the linking concepts to do the combinations? If so, that's pretty exciting to learn as well.
    no i didnt learn the linking form...but by that time i learned it, i could already use the five fist in a multiple different ways...to be honest even now..i dont practice all my xing yi.. i do the five fist, dragon, horse, tiger, bear and eagle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalSpring View Post

    Instead it's just like "oh wow, this is so cool, if i train this a lot it'll be awesome!"
    Great! I'm glad it works for you.

    Just don't impale yourself on a tree branch, like Zhang Gen in the legend.

  15. #15
    i think of the "roads" or elements as 5 methods for delivering mass in 5 different directions.

    once you understand the intended direction of the mass then hsing i can be more free.
    best,

    bruce

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