Xing Yi - 5 Element Fist and Linking

[tattooedmonk]

absolutely Bruce.

The application isnt as important as applying the principles.

The 5 roads are just 5 different ways of applying them and can be applied x5 as well. So you have fire metal, fire water, fire earth , fire wood , etc.

I love Xin Yi Quan.

[brucereiter]

absolutely Bruce.

The application isnt as important as applying the principles.

The 5 roads are just 5 different ways of applying them and can be applied x5 as well. So you have fire metal, fire water, fire earth , fire wood , etc.

I love Xin Yi Quan.

i personally would rather be taught a "principal" than a technique. hsing i is good at that i think.
if my mass moves like this then your mass must move like that in order to create and destroy opportunity.

pi chuan has a principal that is found through out hsing i. this principle is that all body parts start and stop at the same time in there delivery of mass. this is the most efficient way to use your whole body.

the 6 harmonies must be observed for the "correct" body alignment to deliver the max mass and the max speed. one of "harmonies" says that your elbow and knee move together. this is a good one to start with since it cause the other harmonies to be used too.

>>>Hsing I chuan “song of san ti” three body position.
As taught by jiang rong qiao.

Body:
If you lean to the front or rear this form will not move.
Leaning to the left or right side are both bad for the body.
It is erect yet seems inclined, It is inclined yet seems erect.

Shoulders:
The head pushes upwards.The shoulders hand downwards.
If the left shoulder is twisted then the right shoulder will follow.
Then the bodies strength will arrive at the hands, the shoulder position makes it so.

Arms:
The left arm reaches to the front. The right arm is by the ribs.
They are like being bent without being bent.
They are like straight without being straight.
If it is to curved it will not reach far enough.
If it is to straight there will not be enough strength.

Hands:
The right hand is by the ribs.
The left hand is even with the chest (tip of fingers at mouth height)
The hand in the rear slightly rubs.
The hand in the front strongly reaches out.
Between both hands front and back the use of strength is equal.

Fingers:
The five fingers are each spread out
Their forms are like hooks.
The tigers mouths are fully round.
Strength must arrive at the fingers But it must not be forced.

Legs:
The left leg is in front.
The right leg supports the rear
They are like being bent without being bent.
They are like straight without being straight.

Feet:
The left foot points straight to the front.
Pointing diagonally or sideways is not good.
The right foot posture is diagonal
The front foot heel is in line with the rear foot ankle.

Tongue:
The tongue is the extremity of the flesh.
If it is curled the chi descends.
The eyes are open, the hair must rise up.
The dantian must sink

Buttocks:
Raise the buttocks and the chi will permeate the four extremities.
The buttocks muscles come together.
If it is to low the posture is broken.
Therefore it is proper to raise it slightly.

<<<

[omarthefish]

absolutely Bruce.

The application isnt as important as applying the principles.

The 5 roads are just 5 different ways of applying them and can be applied x5 as well. So you have fire metal, fire water, fire earth , fire wood , etc.

I love Xin Yi Quan.

Sorry to be pedantic here but it's XinG Yi Quan.

It's not just a minor misspelling because there is a related but completely distinct martial art style called xin yi. The two should not be confused.

[doug maverick]

xin yi is also correct.

[omarthefish]

xin yi is also correct.

No. It is not. It is an entirely different word which refers to an entirely different style of martial art.

xinyi: 心意

xingyi:形意
心vs. 形

Two entirely different martial arts. Historically related but quite distinct.

================================================== =
p.s.
They sound extremely similar and that's why, in most cases, I wouldn't bother with making such a point about the distinction but, in this case it's the difference between a Panda that eat shoots and leaves and one that eats, shoots and leaves.

[Sima Rong]

They do seem somewhat different...I started talking about the animal forms, which are pretty essential to Xinyi I think, and it seems that with Xing Yi you concentrate on 5 fists and the san ti stance. I don't know enough about Xinyi, even Henan Xinyi Liuhe, to know if they use 5 fists at all, or whether they are encapsulated in animal forms.

[Empty_Cup]

No. It is not. It is an entirely different word which refers to an entirely different style of martial art.

xinyi: 心意

xingyi:形意
心vs. 形

Two entirely different martial arts. Historically related but quite distinct.

================================================== =
p.s.
They sound extremely similar and that's why, in most cases, I wouldn't bother with making such a point about the distinction but, in this case it's the difference between a Panda that eat shoots and leaves and one that eats, shoots and leaves.

+1

I think the waters get muddied a lot because if you google Xin Yi you get lots of hits on "xinyi/xingyi" and the like. Can you elaborate more on Xin Yi, omar?

[GeneChing]

I really enjoyed it. I learned the five elements and the twelve animals, but the twevle didn't really stick as I didn't train them for as long or as well. Xingyi really came alive for me when I started doing An Shen Pao (安身炮) the two-man drill form. Of course, I was doing that with Tony Chen, so it brought me up to speed pretty quickly. When he moved on, I couldn't sustain it sadly.

Here's the Xingyi DVD series we produced with Liang Shouyu, Helen Liang, Yang Chenhan and Tony Chen.
Xing Yi 5 Elements Fists
Xing Yi Twelve Animals Fist
Selection of Traditional Xing Yi Fist Forms
5 Elements Xingyi Staff & Spear
12 Animals Xingyi Staff & Spear
5 Elements Xingyi Sword
12 Animals Xingyi Sword
This is the exact curriculum that I trained in under Shifu Tony and I'm rather embarrassed to admit that I've let that all go. I could probably still recite the 5 Elements hand form, and often think I should recover that 5 Elements Sword because I really loved it, but I'm too lazy and have enough on my plate now with my Shaolin practice. I even wrote an article on it: Xingyi's Dadao: The Lost Legacy of the Big Blade Troop in our 2006 March/April issue.


otf is right. Xinyi and Xingyi are different. To make matters more confusing, I currently train Changhu Xinyi Men (长护心意门) which is a completely unrelated Songshan Shaolin form.

[omarthefish]

+1

I think the waters get muddied a lot because if you google Xin Yi you get lots of hits on "xinyi/xingyi" and the like. Can you elaborate more on Xin Yi, omar?

Not really. Better to head over to rumsoakedfist.org and ask somebody who actually trains it. I have done a bit of Xingyi, really a tiny bit, and I have seen plenty of Xinyi. There's a couple guys who show up at the demos I go to and I've even got a shixiong who used to train it but I can't speak with any authority on the differences. I only know that "they" say that Xingyi evolved out of Xinyi. If I wasn't familiar with the history, from just looking at them, I would never have guessed that they were related. The look extremely different to me.

I'll assume you've all seen plenty of xingyi before. This is what xinyi looks like:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_cb00XOTk2NjEwNA==.html

I know of some clips I like better on youtube but I can't access it from China today. Maybe later.

[EternalSpring]

Feet:
The left foot points straight to the front.
Pointing diagonally or sideways is not good.
The right foot posture is diagonal
The front foot heel is in line with the rear foot ankle.

This was something I've been thinking about. Though I've seen it as described above in nearly every video or picture, the way I'm being taught San Ti we have the back foot pointing straight and the front foot at around 45 degrees with the toes lined up. Has anyone seen this type of san ti in other lineages? I figured it might have been some sort of family specific difference at best.

[xinyidizi]

There are many variations of xinyi. One can easily see the similarity between xinyiliuhe and dai xinyi. It's also possible to see the similarity between dai xinyi and xingyi, however the similarity between xingyi and xinyiliuhe might be harder to see. Personally I think xingyi can be considered as part of xinyi however xinyi can not be called xingyi as it includes all of the sub-styles.

[Matthew]

There are many variations of xinyi. One can easily see the similarity between xinyiliuhe and dai xinyi. It's also possible to see the similarity between dai xinyi and xingyi, however the similarity between xingyi and xinyiliuhe might be harder to see. Personally I think xingyi can be considered as part of xinyi however xinyi can not be called xingyi as it includes all of the sub-styles.

Really interesting- I can't say I've had a XinYi or XingYi teacher, but the said highest goal of what I practice is "XinYiBa" (to understand XinYi could be a translation).

Shi De Jian master tells in one of his Chinese books about his first times in Shaolin. He was showing the XingYi he learned to some masters who would become his teachers -and then they imitated and replicated it.

When De Jian Master asked "you [know how to] practice XingYi Too?" Shi De Chan master (Shaolin abbot after XingZhen) mentioned that XingYi came from Shaolin, and it was previously written in the records (before being destroyed). Just as Chen Style Taiji.

Externally the forms look similar between Shi De Jian master. The practice starts with Zhan Zhuang and very specific breathing/mental elaborations.

In this way, the XinYiBa may have represented the historical link to Shaolin between XinYi, or from where it was originally incubated.

Seperately:
Yi Quan founder Wang XiangZhai was also reported to believe XingYi essense is no longer understood or transmitted effectively, as it originally had no emphasis on outer form when compared to inner essence. He extensively taught Zhan Zhuang and Zhan Zhuang variations and named the style in honor of early styles utilizing "Yi" (intent) of XinYi/XingYi in honor of this

[EternalSpring]

Great! I'm glad it works for you.

Just don't impale yourself on a tree branch, like Zhang Gen in the legend.

I shall gladly follow this advice!

i think of the "roads" or elements as 5 methods for delivering mass in 5 different directions.

once you understand the intended direction of the mass then hsing i can be more free.

Oh wow, I can vaguely understand what you mean but I'm sure it'll come clear with more training. How would you view the animal forms in light of the the roads as being methods of delivering mass in 5 different directions?

[mawali]

This form came from 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi). You can see it's more than just 5 elments.

郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) -> 常东升(Chang Dong Sheng)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfKJyd43is0

劉緯祥（1864 - 1936）， 河北省河間府人。8歲時從劉曉嵐習八極拳，14歲時從形意拳名家郭雲深習形意拳，以後又得名師宋世榮、白西 園兩先生指點。經多年苦修，技遂精湛。以驍勇善鬥，講求實戰稱著武林，時人皆以“劉二彪子”稱之。為近代形 意拳技擊實驗派代表人物之一。馬禮堂的武術老師。
Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), Hebei hejian Fu people. At the age of 8 from bajiquan Liu Xiaolan acquisition, at the age of 14 from a famous xingyi Quan Guo Yun deep practiced boxing, later famous Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two directions. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor good governance, emphasis on practical martial art, people are "Liu Erbiao". One of representatives of modern boxing art experiment. Horse Hall of martial arts teachers.

I learnt it from student of Chang Dong Sheng in Chicago over 20 years ago!

[doug maverick]

i think of the "roads" or elements as 5 methods for delivering mass in 5 different directions.

once you understand the intended direction of the mass then hsing i can be more free.

original the five elements were five different, i guess theories on how one should issue power. it was li lou neng who solidified them into technique... xing yi is probably the only martial art, that and im talking about in the five element perspective..looks like boxing. and i feel over the years boxing has influenced the style.