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Thread: stance training since you ask

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sima Rong View Post
    A traditional Indian training exercise for wrestling, along with Hindu press-ups (like a dive-bomb push up), and other things like rope-climbing, running, flipping your body over on your head, and heavy weight swinging.
    Oh, guess I should have just Youtubed them in the first place

    We also practice Hindu squats and Hindu pushups every class for warmup, although until now I had never heard them called Hindu anything. The only difference is that for the HIndu pushup I like to reverse back to the starting position the same way I went down. i.e. like shimmying under a fence and then coming back under the fence.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    your legs will have a pretty good ability to clear lactic acid.
    Since you are so fond of name checking Teh Science maybe you ought to know that the myth that lactic acid is a waste product was debunked about 40 years ago.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/he...6run.html?_r=0

    http://phys.org/news64680736.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    This is not a veiled request for compliments

    The short story is I did 325# for one set of 1 rep.

    1) Does this sound gifted, or just lucky?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Since you are so fond of name checking Teh Science maybe you ought to know that the myth that lactic acid is a waste product was debunked about 40 years ago.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/he...6run.html?_r=0

    http://phys.org/news64680736.html
    He didn't mention that lactic acid is a "waste product".
    He said that:
    But really anything where you're dynamically doing something with a lower weight but higher reps will increase the efficiency of the muscle in use of oxygen and clearing lactic acid, hence more endurance. So lot of lunges, squats, etc.
    Which is correct according to your article that states:
    Training helps people get rid of the lactic acid before it can build to the point where it causes muscle fatigue, and at the cellular level, Brooks said, training means growing the mitochondria in muscle cells. The mitochondria - often called the powerhouse of the cell - is where lactate is burned for energy.

    Read more at: http://phys.org/news64680736.html#jCp
    The only difference was that the article advocates interval training as opposed to steady pace endurance:
    "The world's best athletes stay competitive by interval training," Brooks said, referring to repeated short, but intense, bouts of exercise. "The intense exercise generates big lactate loads, and the body adapts by building up mitochondria to clear lactic acid quickly. If you use it up, it doesn't accumulate."

    Read more at: http://phys.org/news64680736.html#jCp
    BUT I am not sure that bacon was advocating steady pace when he said:
    doing something with a lower weight but higher reps
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The only difference was that the article advocates interval training as opposed to steady pace endurance:


    BUT I am not sure that bacon was advocating steady pace when he said:
    doing something with a lower weight but higher reps
    Actually sometimes it's good to do a mix. For example if you do hill sprints and at the end your legs still have some spring in them but your lungs are dying you can take a short break and do a ton of Hindu squats however you choose (sets to Paiute, pyramid, etc.) so you can work the legs more.
    Also for some exercises many people will not have enough strength to do high intensity intervals (ex. pull ups) so reducing the weight by placing a box under for the feet and then doing a few sets to failure will help.

  5. #20
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    Yep, I agree.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    He didn't mention that lactic acid is a "waste product".
    When he said "clearing lactic acid" I'm fairly certain he did not mean to burn it off as fuel.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The only difference was that the article advocates interval training as opposed to steady pace endurance:

    BUT I am not sure that bacon was advocating steady pace when he said:
    doing something with a lower weight but higher reps
    I didn't say anything about advocating one type of training over another.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    When he said "clearing lactic acid" I'm fairly certain he did not mean to burn it off as fuel.



    I didn't say anything about advocating one type of training over another.
    No, he probably didn't mean that either, but the study you posted mentions more or less the same terms: "get rid off the lactic acid".
    Granted in the study the state BEFORE it build up causing the soreness/pain.
    And no, you didn't say anything about any type of training, I was commenting on his comment about "low weights high reps".
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    For example if you do hill sprints and at the end your legs still have some spring in them but your lungs are dying you can take a short break and do a ton of Hindu squats however you choose (sets to Paiute, pyramid, etc.) so you can work the legs more.
    Still have some spring? A couple of sets of max effort hill sprints on a moderate grade (~6-8%) and you should barely be able to walk back down the hill.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Still have some spring? A couple of sets of max effort hill sprints on a moderate grade (~6-8%) and you should barely be able to walk back down the hill.
    Some people don't gave access to good hills. Where I used to live had wonderful hills. Where I am now does not so I have to supplement.

  10. #25
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    Yeah, I was gonna reply to that post but the thread got closed.

    As I've stated numerous times before, I used to do TCMA. I did stance training every day for a long time. For a while I was probably in horse stance for 30-40 minutes per day, every day, with all the stuff I used to do.

    And as I've stated numerous times before, I stopped doing it because it wasn't meeting my needs. I developed the ability to hold a horse stance for a long period of time, but I didn't develop strength or fighting endurance. I was pretty stable in a horse stance as far as holding it and not getting tired/sore/shaky goes, but that doesn't translate into raw strength, nor does it translate into fighting, because you don't fight from a horse stance. Doing something in a horse stance for half a second in a fight doesn't = fighting from a horse stance. It's hilarious when people post a picture from UFC where some guy happened to be in something that resembled a horse stance and say "SEE, IT'S USED IN 'REAL FIGHTING'!". Unless you actually spend time in a horse stance while fighting (and this doesn't include transitioning or randomly ending up in that position for a split second), there's no reason to train holding horse stance for more than a minute or two, as explained in post 4 of that other thread.

    Long story short, I stopped training horse stance because I had needs other than muscular endurance in a fixed position. The main need was an ability to develop strength. My legs were weak as heck despite spending 30-40 minutes in horse stance per day for over a year prior to beginning weight lifting. But by TCMA doctrine I should've been super strong.

    My other need was size. I'm a naturally skinny guy. Horse stance training sure doesn't do anything to promote hypertrophy.

    I've now lost the ability to hold horse stance for more than a few minutes, which makes sense because I haven't trained it in over 10 years, but I don't care, because since I don't do TCMA forms or "strength sets" anymore, there's no need to be able to do horse stance.
    Last edited by IronFist; 10-04-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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  11. #26
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    Let me follow up to that post before people misquote me as saying "horse stance is useless" and stuff.

    After horse stance training, was I stronger than if I hadn't trained? Of course. I was generally stronger than untrained people who were my size and weight.

    But the first rule of training is SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands) which states that your body gets better at what you do and gets worse at what you don't do. So really all I had was minimal strength increases (the first minute or two, as explained in post 4 of the other thread), and lots of static muscular endurance increases. In other words, I could hold a horse stance for a lot longer than most people, and I had only slight strength increases.

    Because of SAID, if you do not train with heavy weights, you will not get strong. The body responds to increasing resistance by getting stronger. This is why horse stance does not make you strong. This is why training with high reps (and therefore light weight) does not make you strong. This is why running long distances does not make your sprint times faster. This is why powerlifters spend most of their time training with heavy weights and low reps.

    I also did a lot of pushups at the time. On average, I did two sets of 55 pushups every day (I'm pretty OCD and have a log of most of my workouts since 1997).

    Most people cannot do one set of 55 pushups, let alone two sets.

    So how did that compare to an untrained person? I could do more pushups than them. People who didn't train were impressed because I could do so many pushups. And because of slight adaptations in strength, I could bench press a little bit more than untrained people who were my size and weight.

    But just as horse stance training doesn't build leg strength, pushups don't build pressing strength (past the first 30 seconds/15 reps or so).

    So was I "strong"? No, not really. I thought I was. I mean dude, when you do TCMA and are surrounded by people who don't really know what they're talking about, you start to believe it, too. I would talk to people about "root" and how great horse stance training was, and how weight lifters were wasting their time and getting big and slow and all that nonsense.

    But no dude, I was weak and misinformed.

    If anything, the TCMA style training I was doing gave me a decent base to begin weight lifting, especially since my body type is naturally skinny and weak, so I wasn't like a TOTAL total noob. But I would say that realistically, all the horse stance, and pushups, and Stone Warrior strength sets, and all that stuff that I did for over a year, spending an hour or more each day on training, all of that stuff was less effective than a month with a competent weight lifting coach would've been, as far as strength development (I say "competent" because there are a lot of bad personal trainers out there).

    I wouldn't say it was a waste of my time, though. I mean, I enjoyed it. But it wasn't a very efficient use of time. But at the time, I really thought it was the best thing I could be doing. I mean I really did. I would spend a lot of time each day thinking about martial arts and training even as I was doing other stuff throughout the day. Physical fitness was important to me and I thought the TCMA way was the best way (probably biased toward ancient Chinese stuff and secret knowledge). But then I kinda realized I had been drinking the Kool Aid for a while.

    It's not that horse stance training and all that other stuff is useless (ok, some of it is), it's just that it's not a very good method for achieving any goal other than being able to hold a horse stance for a long time.

    And that's why I have always said, if your goal is to be able to hold a horse stance for a long period of time, whether for TCMA purposes, or form purposes, or bragging rights, or mental toughness, or personal goals, or anything else, then train horse stance! But if your goal is pretty much anything else, there are much more effective ways to get there.
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  12. #27
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    no one on this forum said you only need to train horse stance for legs.

    sounds like you cant let go of your mcdojo past.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    For a while I was probably in horse stance for 30-40 minutes per day, every day, with all the stuff I used to do.
    I don't believe you.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    But by TCMA doctrine I should've been super strong.
    No.

    Nearly two decades and you're still repeating the same three boring ass stories over and over and over and over.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    no one on this forum said you only need to train horse stance for legs.

    sounds like you cant let go of your mcdojo past.
    No we've simply said the given the alternatives which do a lot more to increase strength and endurance it is barely useful at best.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    I don't believe you.
    Ok. I'm sure you would've believed me if I had tales of mystic powers that I developed from horse stance training, though.

    Don't get me wrong; I got all the benefits one gets from horse stance training: crazy static endurance and minimal strength gains. And the confidence/mental toughness that comes from doing horse stance from a long time. It felt good and I almost always enjoyed it, but that's really all. I deluded myself into believing there were more benefits, and that's part of why I enjoyed it so much.

    In hindsight, it was fun, though. Well, afterward when you stand up and your quads can finally relax and you get that little endorphin rush.

    I will even go so far as to say that in terms of enjoyment and motivation, weight lifting is at best equal to my TCMA training, but definitely not superior to it. But I think that has more to do with my mindset:

    Obviously I know weight lifting is better for my personal goals, and I'm lightyears beyond where I ever got with TCMA training in terms of strength, speed, power, technique, etc., but comparing how much I enjoy weight lifting now to how much I enjoyed TCMA training then, and it's a tie at best. TCMA may win by a slight margin.

    Well, I dunno. I do enjoy weight lifting most days at the gym. It feels good and it's awesome when you put up new PRs. But I dunno... there's something about TCMA training that is enjoyable. I don't know that I would enjoy it now as much anymore (since I would likely view it as inefficient), but then I didn't see it that way. It was my obsession and I loved it.

    Sometimes I do want to go through an old strength set just for old time's sake, though.

    No.

    Nearly two decades and you're still repeating the same three boring ass stories over and over and over and over.
    Fortunately it only took me the experiences of 3 stories to realize TCMA training wasn't the most efficient ways to accomplish my goals.

    And my stories aren't boring; they're awesome. I wish I had had an IronFist talking to me when I was young and doing all that training (although I probably wouldn't have listened to him... you know cuz weight lifters are making themselves big and slow and inflexible and don't understand the troo secretz of strength training).

    Fortunately, I met cool people who explained things to me rather than just throwing dogma at me and expecting that I believe it.

    So I pay it forward now.
    Last edited by IronFist; 10-04-2012 at 09:31 PM.
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