Post Flow Drills Por Favor

[IronWeasel]

he can stand on his opponent's dead body and perform "white crane flips wings" to prove that he is a taiji guy, or perform "bong shou" to prove that he is a wc guy.

.........



+1

[Michael Dasargo]

Even for a given sequence, there are multiple ways to execute, depending on what concept you choose to emphasize.

The video showed letting the person complete his motion. An alternate way is to intercept his technique early.

Another is to draw his intent and intercept that.

Another sequence - you guys have done the black tiger steals heart, with the running jumping footwork, right?

Haven't gotten to a flow drill with footwork yet. They are barely getting the cadence of TLQ after getting passed the fundamentals of fighting, and now Im trying to sneak in the Tui Fa cadence with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlgkC09lWC0

[Michael Dasargo]

haha -N-, You beat me to it....

I was going to say the same thing, The left guy was allowed to enter and strike first. He did say it could be a push, that's true.
That's the only thing i'd change...i'd make sure to always check that hand.

As for waiting for him to initiate a push 1st...well that's easy. Act surprised and let it happen. haha

But they could also do it so that the left guy works an intercept 1st for example and then while his right hand is closer...it could steal in for the push. That would make sense.

Also if left guy altered mid drill and block punched the guys rt shoulder instead...it would take allot from his structure. It would totally throw off the drill.
One of many possibilities.

I like it over-all it's GOOD and can appreciate the timing and skill. But i'd change that one piece.

These dudes are only following a set group of techniques in their flow drill. It's GOOD for what it is...but i'm sure if it was more random, there would be much more timing breaks. I'm sure they probably do have a more random method. Most good schools do.

"O"

Oh and lastly that dude looks Pinoy...if he is, he's even better skilled and also good looking.

Hahaha...thanks bromo. I love ya back! crap, what were we talking about?

Oh yeah, checking the hand...it's actually a mistake on my part. If I am able to check the hand, either my partner block/strike sequentially rather than simultaneously, or I'm anticipating.

The preceding movement is to leak while advancing the elbow for a rapid counter block+strike. Many of the movements have to be very near simultaneous.

The issue I've always had with flow drills is that no one "wins", and there is no reflex development because of the anticipation of the need to execute a specific technique.

However, the flow drills DO develop body mechanics and an increased recognition of tactile/proprioceptive stimuli at varying rates of momentum.

When techniques are extrapolated into feeder drills with randomized stimuli, then reflex development is in play.

Mike D.
Sexy Pinoy

[Michael Dasargo]

He can stand on his opponent's dead body and perform "white crane flips wings" to prove that he is a Taiji guy, or perform "Bong Shou" to prove that he is a WC guy.

bwahahahahahahahahahahaahahahhahaa...so gonna do a mantisy thing in my next video.

[Shaolin]

but there's not any that develops the indicator for a striking opportunity, or a striking flow drill that transitions into clinch controls.

Yes there is. All of my coaches have us practice flow drills regularly. Including my boxing/thai boxing, wrestling and jiu jitsu coaches. Then when the fight team gets together to practice and put everything together for MMA we still use flow drills to transition from standing, to clinch, to take downs, to the ground (grappling and ground striking) and back up.

I've been training in Shaolin and Tai Chi for about 15 years now and one truth I've realized is, as good as they are still still have holes. To be a "complete" martial artist one needs to train outside of their chosen art form.

[Michael Dasargo]

that was actually my point...I should have said, there aren't any in Mantis Boxing.

I guess the last statement
"Great idea...gonna have to look outside of mantis and find the common threads."

wasn't clear enough about that.

[YouKnowWho]

The

- striking art doesn't have flow drills that end with grappling.
- grappling art doesn't have flow drills that start with striking.

Both your boxing coach and wrestling coach won't be able to help you on that. Only instructor who has "integration" knowledge and experience can help you. The day that you are interesting in "integration", the word "style" will no longer has meaning to you. You will become a MMA guy no matter you like it or not.

[-N-]

The

- striking art doesn't have flow drills that end with grappling.
- grappling art doesn't have flow drills that start with striking.

Both your boxing coach and wrestling coach won't be able to help you on that. Only instructor who has "integration" knowledge and experience can help you. The day that you are interesting in "integration", the word "style" will no longer has meaning to you. You will become a MMA guy no matter you like it or not.

No reason why people can't assemble their own.

I threw together something recently to explain to a student.

Right grab, left punch, right forearm hook, left underhook, shoulder lock takedown.

Alternate sequence was right grab, left punch, right forearm hook, left redirect, kao da.

People can turn that into a drill.

[Subitai]

True, anyone can come up with drills... Many are good, some leave obvious holes IMO.

Most teachers have thier own goals in mind however. The only time a drill bugs me is when the drill doesn't follow certain kung fu principles that I favor. In my opinion certain kung fu basic are universal regardless of style.

Things like: not minding your center, the hand coming back empty, left side crossing to right and vice versa, when you "Open" a gate you should complete the thought and "Close" it....lots more. There are many things to look for, it depends on the depth of the teacher and what his/her experiences are ...."YouKnowWho" is correct on that point.

The problem is, not many who have been well trained in TMA have also fought competitively at a higher level. Or never outside their own school.

My other pet peeve is people not understanding Good "Entries". Drilling what happens after the entry points are easy but closing the gap on a guy who is unwilling to play your way is where most TMA falters.

This last point has been my obsession for over 10yrs now.

[Syn7]

What do you mean by this:

the hand coming back empty

And what do you mean about crossing? You feel it leaves an opening over the top? What about a simple right cross? You see that as a no no?

[Subitai]

What do you mean by this: the hand coming back empty

And what do you mean about crossing? You feel it leaves an opening over the top? What about a simple right cross? You see that as a no no?

Leave your bridge out there...
It sounds crazy to a boxer, to leave your hand out there for example. Because most often a boxer will for example, jab and bring back to proper position, cross and bring back. It's not for everybody, I do it only because I have allot of experience doing it and I know when I can get away with it.

Sometimes in kung fu, you can leave your bridge out there and take something back with you. For example, I throw a back fist and the guy puts him arm up to block it, so Instead of retracting my hand empty, I grab his wrist and pull back with it. It's not hard and gets easier to do with practice.

Crossing part is different, generally you never let your right arm for example to cross your center over to your left side TOO MUCH...if you can help it. Instead, you turn your torso / waist / dan tien...yada yada.

So yes, my right hand can go to my left, but not folding across the chest. If It has to go that far, I move/turn with it.

[-N-]

For example, I throw a back fist and the guy puts him arm up to block it, so Instead of retracting my hand empty, I grab his wrist and pull back with it. It's not hard and gets easier to do with practice.

This is classical Praying Mantis method. Other systems have it also, I would think.

Back fist converting to grab, we call bung diou.

We specifically train a power smashing move to be able to instantantly switch in mantis grab. At the same time as the grab, the other hand punches. Mantis always wants to continuously control and attack.

We intercept the intent to block though. We don't leave the back fist out to be blocked, then grab. The backfist is a trap. We steal his block before it completes, and we pull him into our next attack.

I've put together flow drills to train that specific skill. One version alternates between backfist and mantis grab into ou lou choy punch.

[-N-]

The issue I've always had with flow drills is that no one "wins", and there is no reflex development because of the anticipation of the need to execute a specific technique.

One concept or method to bring to the flow drill is "no conception, no mind". To strike from emptiness.

It is a mental training to let go of the anticipation and thought about the technique. Tap into the essence of the attack stimulus and use that as your trigger to explode from emptiness. You train to shorten that interval through detached instantaneous reaction.

That is the deep level training, once the physical sequence has been trained.

It is mental training rather than physical. The physical is there just so you have something to allow the mental to manifest.

So mental training to tap into emptiness. And mental training to instantaneous response to a trigger. One of the key aspects to my teacher's method for speed.

More fun to train this in sparring than in drill, though.

[Syn7]

Leave your bridge out there...
It sounds crazy to a boxer, to leave your hand out there for example. Because most often a boxer will for example, jab and bring back to proper position, cross and bring back. It's not for everybody, I do it only because I have allot of experience doing it and I know when I can get away with it.

Sometimes in kung fu, you can leave your bridge out there and take something back with you. For example, I throw a back fist and the guy puts him arm up to block it, so Instead of retracting my hand empty, I grab his wrist and pull back with it. It's not hard and gets easier to do with practice.

Thanx for taking the time.

Ok I understand bridging and creating situations for your benefit. But you don't ALWAYS bring something back with you, do you?

I was always taught that both had their advantages. Resetting can be a good thing, especially when you stay outside the pocket. I like bridging, but I wouldn't use it as a rule in every situation. We on the same page?

Crossing part is different, generally you never let your right arm for example to cross your center over to your left side TOO MUCH...if you can help it. Instead, you turn your torso / waist / dan tien...yada yada.

So yes, my right hand can go to my left, but not folding across the chest. If It has to go that far, I move/turn with it.

Gotcha. Agreed. To an extent, anyways.

[Subitai]

Thanx for taking the time.

Ok I understand bridging and creating situations for your benefit. But you don't ALWAYS bring something back with you, do you?

I was always taught that both had their advantages. Resetting can be a good thing, especially when you stay outside the pocket. I like bridging, but I wouldn't use it as a rule in every situation. We on the same page?

Gotcha. Agreed. To an extent, anyways.

Well, your totally right if your reffering to it being optional. I just happen to do Hung Kuen and Taiji so naturally I much preffer a stick point of some kind.

It just bugs me personally if I work hard to close then out of reflex or because of a FLINCH I end up with nothing. haha.