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Thread: Yuen Kay San - Bridge from the outside

  1. #16
    If you're going to control the elbow, you might as well control the body and head. If you're going to control the body and head, you might as well throw them. If you throw them, you might as well hit them on the ground or otherwise control/submit/pin them.

    In a real fight...the likely hood of being able to control someone completely the entire fight at the wrists and even the elbows is slim. In a real fight, your element of control will be constantly varied because both individuals will be vying for position and since WC works best in the clinch range it's best to get familiar with things like neck control, hooks, and rising punches as well as your piston punching and and learning to adapt the 3 hand forms to help you transition and maintain varying clinch positions.
    Last edited by SAAMAG; 10-15-2012 at 07:41 AM.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  2. #17
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    Its not wise to charge in from outside the gate with elbows. You leave your self vunerable because the elbow is a short range weapon...The wing chun punch is longer...So charging in will take you a moment to get close enough to land one...especially if im agile an non-committed. In WC i learn you are relentless and aggressive but you dont fully committ to the point where you open or able to be controlled. Come in with elbows if you want to..i will simply deflect or redirect while flanking you an kicking your knees out from under you simultaneously...

    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    You CANNOT control an opponent at the wrist, and leave your body vulnerable to his elbows! I keep seeing all the gaps the opponent can charge in with the elbows. In controlled demos the opponent may not want to get aggressive nor commit. In a real fight your opponent is going to charge in and want to finish you. He WILL use his elbows, full forced elbows.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    You can control at the wrist but the best control in wing chun is always at the elbow.
    There is away to control the elbow so your opponent can not collasp an use it as weapon!
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  4. #19
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    Great post

    Quote Originally Posted by SAAMAG View Post
    If you're going to control the elbow, you might as well control the body and head. If you're going to control the body and head, you might as well throw them. If you throw them, you might as well hit them on the ground or otherwise control/submit/pin them.

    In a real fight...the likely hood of being able to control someone completely the entire fight at the wrists and even the elbows is slim. In a real fight, your element of control will be constantly varied because both individuals will be vying for position and since WC works best in the clinch range it's best to get familiar with things like neck control, hooks, and rising punches as well as your piston punching and and learning to adapt the 3 hand forms to help you transition and maintain varying clinch positions.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    You can control at the wrist but the best control in wing chun is always at the elbow.
    Not the way he's doing it.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Its not wise to charge in from outside the gate with elbows. You leave your self vunerable because the elbow is a short range weapon...The wing chun punch is longer...So charging in will take you a moment to get close enough to land one...especially if im agile an non-committed. In WC i learn you are relentless and aggressive but you dont fully committ to the point where you open or able to be controlled. Come in with elbows if you want to..i will simply deflect or redirect while flanking you an kicking your knees out from under you simultaneously...
    Completely missing the point.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAAMAG View Post
    If you're going to control the elbow, you might as well control the body and head. If you're going to control the body and head, you might as well throw them. If you throw them, you might as well hit them on the ground or otherwise control/submit/pin them.

    In a real fight...the likely hood of being able to control someone completely the entire fight at the wrists and even the elbows is slim. In a real fight, your element of control will be constantly varied because both individuals will be vying for position and since WC works best in the clinch range it's best to get familiar with things like neck control, hooks, and rising punches as well as your piston punching and and learning to adapt the 3 hand forms to help you transition and maintain varying clinch positions.
    In a real fight, it only lasts seconds. You just need to completely dominate those seconds and destroy the opponent. You are not chasing hands while watching an entire episode of Tom and Jerry. You don't have to do the entire set of Gangnam moves.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  8. #23
    So then the way to dominate is by controlling their elbows? Is that what you're saying?
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAAMAG View Post
    So then the way to dominate is by controlling their elbows? Is that what you're saying?
    Know your opponent's "gates"; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro's and con's of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.

    In general, I would not go straight for the opponent's head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is "attack is my defense", I don't mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent's ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.

    While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    Know your opponent's "gates"; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro's and con's of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.

    In general, I would not go straight for the opponent's head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is "attack is my defense", I don't mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent's ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.

    While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.
    Totally agree John.
    If you're going to go blasting in for head shots that's a reall limited way to look at wing chun. Boxers would label you a headhunter, the difference being that boxing has more shots than WC to use this approach and that's why WCers are shwn as one dimensional when they apply this.
    WC is all about the bridge and controlling the opponent WHILST striking him, that's its trick up its sleeve so to say..... And IMO kicking is an important part of ths strategy.

    My two bobs worth for the day

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    Know your opponent's "gates"; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro's and con's of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.

    In general, I would not go straight for the opponent's head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is "attack is my defense", I don't mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent's ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.

    While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.
    That was a great post actually. The idea of controlling their gates as you enter is a given if you're advancing from distance to clinch to ground, and thats essetially what I'm saying. Added to that--the notion that you're not going to control someone an entire fight by their limbs, assuming he fight is with someone of about the same skill.

    If you're fighting some joe blow it might end after the first blow, but if not one has to move and transition either into closer ranges or maintain distance and control the fight with positioning and striking. If you just hang out in the pocket--unless you're Floyd Mayweather--you're going to take a lot of damage as you'll be in range for every single weapon they have.

    That said--you guys should watch some of Jack Johnson and Willie Pep fights. I was turned onto these older aged boxers because of their use of clinch work and very CMA-like bridge work to maintain defense.
    Last edited by SAAMAG; 10-16-2012 at 09:24 AM.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAAMAG View Post
    That was a great post actually. The idea of controlling their gates as you enter is a given if you're advancing from distance to clinch to ground, and thats essetially what I'm saying. Added to that--the notion that you're not going to control someone an entire fight by their limbs, assuming he fight is with someone of about the same skill.

    If you're fighting some joe blow it might end after the first blow, but if not one has to move and transition either into closer ranges or maintain distance and control the fight with positioning and striking. If you just hang out in the pocket--unless you're Floyd Mayweather--you're going to take a lot of damage as you'll be in range for every single weapon they have.
    Exactly, the idea that you can dominate in close (using WC) without controlling bridges and hopefully the opponents COG just doesn't work against a stylist such as a boxer

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.
    Controlling the first gate at the wrist can provide you with an instant of leverage to move in closer protected and feed towards controlling the second gate. The window of opportunity at the wrist is smaller than the elbow or shoulder though.

  14. #29
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    I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory...very good...

    Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist...in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily...some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily...But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist...i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking...My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so...Not with the intent to grab his wrist...but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him!
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory...very good...

    Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist...in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily...some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily...But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist...i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking...My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so...Not with the intent to grab his wrist...but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him!
    If you go in with intent to do this or that you will be chasing a trap when you should let it go and chasing hands when you should not. The goal should be to hit him. Anything else is only how to get there and if the current road has too many potholes.. Switch!

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