I Give Up Kung Fu is lost

[wiz cool c]

Ok I have been living in china 6 years now,three in Beijing and now three in Shenzhen Guang Dong province. In Beijing I did Shuai Jiao and Bagua Zhang,and now here in shenzhen have done some Hung Chuan and now Shaolin.

So today i wanted to interview my teacher for an idea I have for an article. The applications from the form Da Hong Quan. Seems simple enough right? It is like pulling teeth trying to get any application or partner work from the teachers here. And not just me. My training partner, is from the uk,we meet in the park once a week to do Shuai Jiao and work some applications and partner drills. He is having the same experience from the guy teaching him Xing Yi.

At one point in today's class I did got him to show me an application from the form. After class during our interview at one point he mentions that kung fu or forms aren't for that,they aren't for fighting. So why did I just learn an application against an arm grab chin na lock is to pull away and then elbow the guy in the face!

The idea for the article was going to be about the applications of Da Hong Quan,and how the monks practice paired work together for fighting with these moves. I got every answer but how they train together. What info I did get was that they do forms for three years before doing any application work ,and when they do learn applications they do them once or twice a week.

Kind of makes you feel like what is the point. If you have to pull teeth to get the applications,and they try to discourage you from learning the fighting aspect,well then what? I can learn aerobics,and do judo if I want to actually train applications and do some fighting. At one point the teacher even said at this school we don't teach this type of fighting from the forms training. and guess what they have sanda classes at this school. So it is forms or fighting.I know this all stems from the cultural revolutions and the chinese goverment"doesn't want brothers fighting brothers'brain washing bull****. But they have destroyed the cutlure of kung fu, what a pitty.

[Subitai]

I'm not saying that any of these are true but I've often heard a couple of expressions or comments:

1) "Most of the good kung fu teachers either left the country or were killed" ... in reference to the cultural revolution.


2) That "if you want to fight with Kung Fu you have to go OUTSIDE of china"

- From the prospective of TCMA = I find it interesting that it's mostly Non Chinese that get the hype about fighting skills in the modern day ( Not forgotten fights from the past between 2 Chinese guys or clans) .
I'm talking about dudes from TCMA willing to throw down today as in the modern day. (Not San Da) For example, in WC...it's always NON Chinese I could name a few like Emin Boztep and others == I'm SORRY IF I DON'T NAME YOU IN THIS EXAMPLE. BUT SUFFICE TO SAY THAT IF YOU LIKE TO THROW DOWN AND YOUR NOT CHINESE THEN YOU PROVE MY POINT.

It's almost like a joke without punch line: Man walks into a bar and see's three martial artists, a Black guy a White Guy and an Asian guy... the bartender says which one do you want to learn from? Guess who gets picked every time?

What sux is what i'm always saying: RACE has nothing to do with martial arts, and neither does the location in which you learn it.

Now I must say the "B SIDE" of this. I believe Martial and Arts are just self expression man. So if you want to stress the Fighting martial aspects hey man, go for it. Also if you want to just focus on the Art's and cultural side mostly, that's cool too. To each his own man, you know?

So mabe, you just havn't found what you're looking for yet. So dude, move outta there and travel some more...you've got your forms (Art's Portion of the equation) So long as you never give up trying to discover the truths for yourself, as least you're on the journey man.

Also i'm available Monday - Fridays if you're ever in Southeastern, CT.

[LFJ]

That's just Songshan Shaolin you're talking about, and it's not surprising. I've been saying it also. Many of the monks and young guys from surrounding schools in the Shaolin area just do the forms for exercise or competition and then rely on Sanda for the "fighting" aspect, even though it's also just competitive sport.

They may have a few hypothetical applications for some moves, like you got, which may or may not be practical. But if you really want to learn the concepts and principles of the systems in Songshan Shaolin and how to actually use them, you have to go to Henan and search the area for the old folk masters who still know this stuff, or be fortunate enough to find someone who has. They exist. But unfortunately, you're right. In the majority of Shaolin practitioners, wherever you go, it is lost.

[TAO YIN]

In China, and this is NOT the golden rule happening all of the time, many teachers are still reluctant to show applications to foreigners. Also, it is a face saving issue...if the applications shown do not work against the foreigner asking, not good.

Most teachers are artists, some are fighters. And even so, sometimes the fighters do not want to show applications, for face issues, or simply for wanting the foreigner to think of it alone.

If you are in Shenzhen and are not finding people who know their stuff, look again and maybe travel a bit. Guangdong is filled with people who know what is up with the practical applications and are open about teaching fighting. Even some foreigners who have lived there for a while teach... If nothing else, go to Hong Kong and check out the scene there. There are some very good fighters/ teachers all over Southern China.

[YouKnowWho]

Many TCMA teachers do believe that "solo form training" is "combat training". When you ask, "Where is your opponent?", they won't even understand what you are talking about. Those teachers mis-lead their students totally to a wrong path. This happen in both China and Taiwan. Their execuse is "TCMA is more than just fighting". If those teaches can be honest to their students that they only teach "health" and "culture'. They can save their students a lot of time. By using "combat" label to promote "health" and "culture" is not only dishonest but also cheating.

My 1st Taiji teacher was a "Taiji for health" guy when I was 7. He told me that Taiji was good for fighting. First he had no "combat" experience himself. Second he didn't know application himself. If he was honest to me and told me that if I wanted to learn combat, I'll need to find another teacher, I will still respect him even today. Instead he had lied to me and had damaged Taiji reputation in my mind for the rest of my life.

[Neeros]

This kind of thing makes me so thankful for my teacher, and lineage where we emphasize combat, and the use of forms and kung fu techniques, stances, and footwork in live combat and sparring as past masters did, instead of discarding it all for kickboxing. Keep looking, you will find genuine traditional kung fu, possibly not in china, but it is out there.

[bawang]

you want real kung fu, and even travel to china. what do you look for? shaolin-taiji-xingyi-bagua. then you complain you got milked.

[SPJ]

Many TCMA teachers do believe that "solo form training" is "combat training". When you ask, "Where is your opponent?", they won't even understand what you are talking about. Those teachers mis-lead their students totally to a wrong path. This happen in both China and Taiwan. Their execuse is "TCMA is more than just fighting". If those teaches can be honest to their students that they only teach "health" and "culture'. They can save their students a lot of time. By using "combat" label to promote "health" and "culture" is not only dishonest but also cheating.

My 1st Taiji teacher was a "Taiji for health" guy when I was 7. He told me that Taiji was good for fighting. First he had no "combat" experience himself. Second he didn't know application himself. If he was honest to me and told me that if I wanted to learn combat, I'll need to find another teacher, I will still respect him even today. Instead he had lied to me and had damaged Taiji reputation in my mind for the rest of my life.

Yes. Most people are doing forms to exercise for health or fitness.

To learn to fight or combat is a whole different story altogether.

Start with basic punch and kick against pads, bags then moving targets.

Start with basic qin na with a partner.

Start with basic throws with a partner.

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[-N-]

Many TCMA teachers do believe that "solo form training" is "combat training". When you ask, "Where is your opponent?", they won't even understand what you are talking about.

What legit TCMA teacher does that?

[xinyidizi]

No not all of them are racist and not all of them want to rip off foreigners. Sometimes you need to be patient and humble until they start teaching. The important thing is to find a good teacher after some research and then you need work on the 人情 part.

[YouKnowWho]

What legit TCMA teacher does that?

Those who believes

- "principle" can be apply to "technique" without going through partner training.
- "Fajin into the thin air" is all you will need and refuse to talk about timing, opportunity, and angle.

[bawang]

most mainland traditional kung fu is anti western and anti modernization.

hongkongers teach kung fu freely to westerners because they were prostitute colony of britain for over 150 years. chinatown sifus teach westerners because they want to be accepted by americans.

shuaijiao freely teaches westerners because shuai jiao is not chinese marital arts. its mongolian wrestling. it has no chinese cultural background.



the boxer rebellion societies in the mainland are alive and well. they changed name into "cultural center" "cultural preservation society" "exercise society" etc.

of course its not fair having forms dangled in front of you, then denied learning the real thing. but this is real life. there are people that dont get along with you. not everybody is your friend. not everybody is eager to please westerners.

[YouKnowWho]

I have always believed that the praying mantis 乱接(Luan Jie) form is a very important form in the PM system training. It trains body push/pull limbs. Oneday I visted a PM school in China. The teacher taught a lot of forms but the 乱接(Luan Jie) form. I asked that PM teacher why. He said, "You just don't teach 乱接(Luan Jie) to anybody." If he treated his own students as "anybody", what kind of hope do you have to learn from him?

That teacher also asked me how many PM forms do I teach to my students. I told him 3 forms only, 崩步(Beng Bu), 乱接(Luan Jie), 摘要(Zhai Yao). He then said, "How long will you be able to keep your students with just 3 forms?" I was speechless after that. Of course I didn't tell him that I can teach my students 400 different throws that they will need more than one life time to learn.

[bawang]

post communist mainland kung fu became popular after jet li movie the shaolin temple in 1982.

the purpose of mainstream mainland kung fu is to make money.

[bawang]

. He declared that there was no good kung fu in Chengdu and left to shanghai.

the cash cows always go to beijing or shanghai. lol