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Thread: Feng Mo or YinShou gun??

  1. #1

    Feng Mo or YinShou gun??

    This staff from performed by Shi Xing Sen, which has been under the supervision of Liu Zhenhai as I searched:

    Shaolin Feng Mo (Wind and Devil) Staff [by Shi Xing Sen] (youtube)

    is both said and written in the video to be Feng Mo [风(風)魔] gun! But it has nothing in common with the well-known Feng Mo gun form, while is very much like Yin Shou gun. Isn't this a version of "Yin Shou gun"?
    Here are the videos of the well-known Yin Shou and Feng Mo gun forms for reference:
    Shaolin Yin-Hand (Yin Shou) Staff [by Shi De Yang] (youtube)
    Shaolin Mad Devil (Feng Mo) Staff [by Shi De Yang] (youtube)

    thanks.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 10-15-2012 at 07:39 AM.

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    Can't seem to open Youtube right now, but I vaguely remember seeing this one. There is a standard Shaolin competition stick set which goes through about half of Yinshougun and then has extended postures, presumably to reach the minimum time/length requirements for competition sets. If I remember, Shi Xingsen's was similar but not the same.

    There are other weapon and empty hand competition sets as well. I never bothered learning any of those, because they are just modernly constructed and standardized for competition. Usually they are made up of random movements from the popular boxing sets. It doesn't really make much sense to combine them.

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    By the way, a Shaolin brother of mine is his disciple and knows him quite well. Shi Xingsen has a pretty good "knowledge" of Shaolin sets, and a wealth of knowledge can be learned from him, and he can teach well, but as should be clear from his performance he never really practiced that much personally, and some of his sets in his series are made up. For example, look at his Chunqiu Dadao set and then look at his Saobagong (broom) set. They are the exactly same. So don't take all of his videos too seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post

    There are other weapon and empty hand competition sets as well. I never bothered learning any of those, because they are just modernly constructed and standardized for competition. Usually they are made up of random movements from the popular boxing sets. It doesn't really make much sense to combine them.
    I'd guess Shaolin Guiding Quan is one of these ones, made up of random movements from empty hand boxing sets, right?

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    Yes. That's it. "Guiding".

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    It has a bit from yin shou, but it has a lot of other techniques. It is a distinct form, but its not great. I'm skeptical about this one.


    In my sect for example FengMo Gun is a DuiLian, a two man form. For one man sets we have stuff like ShaoHuo, MeiQi, YinShou and YuanHouBang.

    Saying that our Shao Huo Gun is very different. Deyangs SHaoHuo Gun for example also has a lot of YinSHou Gun in it.

    It confuses me all the time.....


    As to the made up modern exam sets, they are generally called Jinsai Quan

    In Dengfeng Guiding Quan (follow the rules fist) is an acceptable name as well but it usually refers specifically to the 5th Dan Chang Quan Form.... I don't know why. But this is used for exams a lot in the big schools, even though it is not Shaolin. Nice set though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    So, if this form is mainly a partial extraction of Yin Shou gun, why should he name it "Feng Mo gun"?? It has only a few movements like those of Feng Mo gun, even the flow of movements and the stepping scheme are copies of those in Yin Shou gun.
    A lot of modern stick sets hijack this name because fengmo (wind demon) describes the nice whooshing sound their moves make. But in fact, they have nothing to do with traditional Fengmogun in Shaolin, which by the way is also a name of traditional stick sets in styles other than Songshan Shaolin. It's a common name easy to use for a new set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    A lot of modern stick sets hijack this name because fengmo (wind demon) describes the nice whooshing sound their moves make...
    Sorry to be the one to break it to you but, no. That is not what "feng mo" means. It means "mad devil". "mad" as in "insane". ie. "like a bat out of hell". Like "Hell Rider" kind of thing. Talking Warner Brothers tasmanian devil here.

    The confusion is because there are two different characters with the exact same pronounciation. 疯(mad, insane) and 风(wind). But when you say "feng mo", even if you use the "wind" character, 风魔, it is simply an alternate "spelling" for the same meaning, a demon from hell that has gone batsh1t insane.

    Check baike: http://baike.baidu.com/view/44641.htm#1

    You can see that not only are the two characters pronounced the same, they are even written almost the same. The character for "mental illness"/疯 is just the character for "wind"/风 surrounded but the radical for "sickness". Probably relates to old pre-scientific ideas about mental illness. "evil wind" entering the brain and stuff like that.

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    You didn't break anything to me, Omar. I'm quite aware of the difference between 疯魔 and 风魔.

    See in the Original Post, the stick set in question uses the "wind" character, and this is also as I said often used to name the modern flashy stick sets in Shaolin for the meaning. It's kind of a generic name for modern stick sets.

    The 疯魔, crazy devil, name refers to the zui luohan, drunken arhat, movements found in the traditional Fengmogun set as done by Shi Deyang.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    You didn't break anything to me, Omar. I'm quite aware of the difference between 疯魔 and 风魔.

    See in the Original Post, the stick set in question uses the "wind" character....
    My point is, regardless of which of the two characters are used, it means the same thing. There is no such thing in Chinese culture as a "wind devil".
    The 疯魔, crazy devil, name refers to the zui luohan, drunken arhat, movements found in the traditional Fengmogun set as done by Shi Deyang.
    It is not unique to the zui luohan, drunken arhat movements. It's a generic name used for staff sets across style just like "bagua". There are "bagua" staff sets in many styles and there are "crazy devil" staff sets in many styles. The Bajiquan staff is also called "fengmogun" as is the pigua staff set. I've seen at least a half dozen "fengmogun" sets from various different styles over the years. It would be a mistake to think that "wind" vs "crazy" indicates anything more than an alternate spelling. It's just one of those naming conventions like the "liuhe spear" (6 harmonies). I'd estimate at least 3/4 of all the northern spear sets I have ever seen from all styles are called "6 harmonies spear".

    As far as staff sets go, "feng mo gun" is a very common name, regardless of style.
    Last edited by omarthefish; 10-13-2012 at 09:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    My point is, regardless of which of the two characters are used, it means the same thing. There is no such thing in Chinese culture as a "wind devil".
    But it really doesn't. "Wind devil" refers to the sound the swinging of the stick makes, and is not just a misspelling of "crazy devil", which in Songshan Shaolin is something different.

    It is not unique to the zui luohan, drunken arhat movements........... It would be a mistake to think that "wind" vs "crazy" indicates anything more than an alternate spelling.
    I know "crazy devil" is a common name in other styles. I can't speak for why they use it, but in the Songshan Shaolin set as Shi Deyang does it, the name refers to the zui luohan elements.

    It's just one of those naming conventions like the "liuhe spear" (6 harmonies).
    Similarly, in Songshan Shaolin we also have the liuhe name in many 2-person sets, written as 六合 which refers to something quite different. Rather than "harmonies" it's six "rounds" as in 回合, referring to the format of the set which has six rounds. We spoke about this here recently.

    So all these names and what they might refer to really depends on the style and particular set in question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    RenDaHai said Shi De Yang's Shao Huo (burning fire) gun is different from other versions and has a lot from Yin Shou gun, so he believes it is a modified version of Shao Huo gun. Here just one question arose for me: What about Shi De Yang's Feng Mo gun? Is it a pure Feng Mo gun?
    In Shi Deyang's lineage, Shaohuogun is the oldest, from the Yuan Dynasty. Fengmogun (crazy devil) is from the Ming Dynasty and follows Shaohuogun exactly until about halfway through. Also at about the mid point, Shaohuogun has a small section found in Yinshougun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    stepping and staff play in Feng Mo gun are quite out of order and mad! The maddest among all the staff forms of Shaolin as far as I've seen.
    Yup. That's the zui luohan "drunken arhat" element.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    Oh! So it is Feng Mo gun that follows Shao Huo gun!
    Yup. Shaohuogun is attributed to Jinaluo in the Yuan. Fengmogun is attributed to monk Zhishan in the Ming.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    You mean "Wind & Devil" and "Crazy Devil" are not two different pronunciations of the same thing? I Mean for example, you mean a "wind & Devil" named form can exist while there can exist a different form named "Crazy Devil"?
    Yup. Of course this is in Songshan Shaolin. This names show up in other styles and may be for different reasons or just misspellings. But they are each used in Songshan Shaolin with separate meanings.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    In Shi Deyang's lineage, Shaohuogun is the oldest, from the Yuan Dynasty.
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Shaohuogun is attributed to Jinaluo in the Yuan.
    It is said this form is called "Shao Huo (Burning or Flaming Fire)" gun, because Jinna Luo who made it was in charge of firing and cooking in Shaolin temple. But there's another quite different staff form in the name of "Jinna Luo Wang." So both these forms have been made by Jinna Luo? Of course, Shao Huo gun is more popular among us outside Shaolin temple, but which one is considered more important, original, or... in Shaolin temple's vicinity?

  15. #15
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    In My sect FengMo exists only as duilian gun,

    It is 'Wild/Crazy/Mad/Raging Demon' Version of the name. It is common in China for the two to be interchangeable.

    I like to translate it as 'Raging Demon' because its both correct and is like Akumas style from Streetfighter. :-)

    There is also a FengMoZhang, FengMoBa and other sets using the name. It is a cool name.

    Although Mo means 'Demon' it is also most often used in MoShu/MoFa (Demon Art, Demon Method) ---Magic. It follows that Mo can sometimes be translated as Magic, so you will sometimes see this form translated as Crazy Magic Wand for example.





    @Shemmati, The acrobatics do appear in the old forms. They are not just a new invention. But they rarely appear in YiLu forms that is the first level forms. For example if you learn a 3 or 4 or more part form then the later sets will often have ditang and acrobatics. I.e XiaoHOngQUan SanLu, Part 3
    .

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