Feng Mo or YinShou gun??

[Xian]

I think if we talk about different Shaolin Sets which use the same name we also have to talk about this Shaohuo Gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9agudhsIu0&feature=plcp



Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

It is said this form is called "Shao Huo (Burning or Flaming Fire)" gun, because Jinna Luo who made it was in charge of firing and cooking in Shaolin temple. But there's another quite different staff form in the name of "Jinna Luo Wang." So both these forms have been made by Jinna Luo? Of course, Shao Huo gun is more popular among us outside Shaolin temple, but which one is considered more important, original, or... in Shaolin temple's vicinity?

Shaohuo, in the context of a kitchen worker, means to light and tend the fire for cooking, as with a wood stove. So a more accurate translation here would be "tending fire".

Jinnaluowanggun is a very repetitive set with postures and movements, and lyrics, that pay homage the legendary scene of Jinnaluo rising above the mountains and crashing his stick down. Based on this you can know it came after the legend was created.

Overall, Shaohuogun is more complete, detailed, useful as a method. Luowanggun, for short, has very few movements that are repeated over and over. But it has its important meaning and place in Shaolin. I look at it as more of a homage set.

A small point I recalled, this form has a Xuan Zi (jumping double backward crescent kicks).

The version in Shi Deyang's instructional is quite different from the way it's actually done. The xuanzi is usually just a 360 spin. Although the xuanzi may be done, there is no split.

I think if we talk about different Shaolin Sets which use the same name we also have to talk about this Shaohuo Gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9agudhsIu0&feature=plcp

I don't do that one, it's a different line, but as the name Shaohuo refers to the legendary "founder" of Shaolin stick fighting, I wouldn't find it surprising for more sects in Shaolin to have their stick sets carry this name. Jinnaluo is a very important figure in Shaolin culture.

[omarthefish]

You mean "Wind & Devil" and "Crazy Devil" are not two different pronunciations of the same thing?

Not different pronunciations. Different ways of writing the same thing. Their ]pronunciation is identical...which is where the confusion starts.

Identical pronunciation and, in this context, identical meaning.

[LFJ]

Identical pronunciation and, in this context, identical meaning.

In what context? We're discussing Songshan Shaolin here, and they clearly have two separate meanings.

As stated, there is a 疯魔棍 in Shaolin where 疯魔 refers to the zui luohan elements of the set, and there is also 风魔棍 where the name deliberately written as 风魔 refers to the whooshing sound of the stick, since the sets are made up of mostly large swinging movements.

Sure, the name appears in other styles for other reasons, and may be incorrectly written for the reasons you've mentioned. But that's not the case in Songshan Shaolin, although the 疯魔棍 set may well be mistakenly written as 风魔棍, there are in fact other sets that deliberately use 风魔棍 for the meaning.

Believe it or not, I guess...

[omarthefish]

In what context?

In the context of an actual sentence.

ie. just as standalone characters, they have different meanings but in the 3 character phrase "fengmogun", the meanings are identical.

...as 风魔 refers to the whooshing sound of the stick, since the sets are made up of mostly large swinging movements....

See this is the part where it sounds completely made up because, in Chinese, that makes no sense whatsoever. It sounds like linguistic gobbledygook.

I went to check your profile since you are making all these weird, yet very confident, dubious claims. Your posts are sprinkled with Chinese characters but your explanations do not sound like they come from anyone who speaks Chinese. Sadly, your profile page is empty. It doesn't even say what you train. So I had to rely on a search of "all this users posts" to try and get a sense of who you were. It only goes back 500 or so posts so I just hopped to the last page to try and see what maybe brought you to this board.

irony.

The oldest post listed from you is from about 4 years ago. The topic: Shaolin Staff Forms
At least you've been consistent over the years:
Back then you said:

i'd like to see the chinese characters for all these stick sets named here, because it sounds like many different english names for the same set.

I see that even back then you acknowledged that it is frequently just a transcriptional error.

Even baike says that 风魔 means 疯魔 and that's not even an MA source. So where are you getting this highly implausible theory that some sets name the set with the "wind" character in order to make some sort of 'windy metaphor'. Your theory makes no sense.

[LFJ]

See this is the part where it sounds completely made up because, in Chinese, that makes no sense whatsoever. It sounds like linguistic gobbledygook.......

......Your posts are sprinkled with Chinese characters but your explanations do not sound like they come from anyone who speaks Chinese.

这里的“风”是用来描述“魔”的形容词，在空中挥舞着手中的棍子听起来就像“风中魔啸”，一点儿也不难以理 解。

Back then you said:

i'd like to see the chinese characters for all these stick sets named here, because it sounds like many different english names for the same set.

I see that even back then you acknowledged that it is frequently just a transcriptional error.

我是说“疯魔棍”的多种英语翻译，例如“ferocious enchanted staff”，“magic staff”，“wind demon staff”等翻译，也是在质疑“wind demon staff”是否是从疯魔棍的错字而来的，这并不是说少林寺另外没有称为风魔棍的棍术套路，它的确有。

Even baike says that 风魔 means 疯魔 and that's not even an MA source. So where are you getting this highly implausible theory that some sets name the set with the "wind" character in order to make some sort of 'windy metaphor'. Your theory makes no sense.

通过我在少林寺地区多年来的经验，我所学过的看过的听说过的少林武术套路有很多。

[LFJ]

Ah, didn't see that! My theory collapsed! If so, the new case will be: These are "exactly" the same: Mad Devil!

further opinions??

hey, omarthefish, in order to confirm what you said for us, can you provide us with a link to that in baike?? (most of us are not familiar with Chinese resources and use Google translator! )

In a general sense, 风魔 is often actually misused for 疯魔. However, there are cases such as with stick sets in Shaolin where the former is deliberately used because of it's meaning of 风中魔啸, which means like a "demon hissing in the wind". It describes the sound of the stick whooshing through the air. I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept to grasp...

[RenDaHai]

As I know, since centuries ago Shaolin Kung fu has been mostly a collection of YiLu sets, YiLu Xiao Hong, Yilu Da Hong, YiLu Qi Xing, YiLu Tong Bei, YiLu Luohan,... At most these are divided into a Xiao and Da, and higher-level Lu's are rarely found for a specific style! So we are not assumed to ever learn those more advanced Shaolin techniques! (this is a bad struggle I have with such FORMing scheme of Shaolin kung fu, I cannot satisfy myself with such YiLu forms and need to learn at least one system to the end!)

It helped me a lot to learn whole sets. I managed to get all of XiaoHOngQUan (1,2,3,4) and Da Hong Quan. But it is difficult to find.

Luohan Quan is at least 9 sets, QiXing has 3,. LaoPaoQuan has 3 or 4, TiSHouPao has many, Jingang has many, DaTongBei has at least 4, LaoTOngBei has at least 3 etc. etc. SO in the yilu sets often there is a lot of repetition between styles because those are the important moves to learn first. The later sets contain generally more interesting techniques.

[LFJ]

there are 3 cases possible with 疯魔 (Mad Devil) and 风魔 (Wind & Devil):

1. These are quite distinct names: If so, the same lineage can possibly have two sets both with Feng Mo name, while they are two quite different sets, just their names are pronounced the same way, while the meanings are different and not interchangeable.

2. These refer to the same thing:

In Songshan Shaolin, #1 is true except in the case where one is perhaps speaking of 疯魔 but mistakenly uses 风魔, or vice versa. In such a case they refer to the same set, but don't mean the same thing.

Adding "stick" to them as a third character doesn't somehow make the first characters mean the same thing, as Omar suggested.

[RenDaHai]

Hey is there any resource out we can learn all these 4 roads from? I have the 4 volume Encyclopedia of Shaolin Martial Arts (they are PDF ebooks and I can upload and post them here. Can I??) and it has only the first 2 roads. Once you and Sal talked about a set of 264 DVDs of Shaolin kung fu forms 108 DVDs of which had become released until that time, Do they have all the 4 roads? Is there any other book, disk, etc??

No. They are not in the encyclopedia and in fact the second road in the encyclopedia is only a fraction of the second road, the whole thing is longer than part 1 (54 moves).

The big DVD set has over 100 DVDs but they are a really bad resource, in most cases just a single performance of a form, from one angle and done unclearly.

THere may be older Quan Pu in Chinese but I don't know.

Actually all in all the forms in the encyclopedia are very unusual versions I would love to know where/Who they come from. They are certainly not all from the compiler.

You'll find a great many of the sets have multiple forms, even Zhaoyang quan is a three form sequence. But they are all hard to find as most people aren't bothered in learning them and the people who manage to are very protective over them.


Most Shaolin resources are mediocre at best unfortunately.

[Sima Rong]

这里的“风”是用来描述“魔”的形容词，在空中挥舞着手中的棍子听起来就像“风中魔啸”，一点儿也不难以理 解。



我是说“疯魔棍”的多种英语翻译，例如“ferocious enchanted staff”，“magic staff”，“wind demon staff”等翻译，也是在质疑“wind demon staff”是否是从疯魔棍的错字而来的，这并不是说少林寺另外没有称为风魔棍的棍术套路，它的确有。



通过我在少林寺地区多年来的经验，我所学过的看过的听说过的少林武术套路有很多。

解释得清楚。

This all makes perfect sense. I don't really think it's so hard to imagine a connection between the name and a characteristic of the performance of the set.

[omarthefish]

In a general sense, 风魔 is often actually misused for 疯魔. However, there are cases such as with stick sets in Shaolin where the former is deliberately used because of it's meaning of 风中魔啸, which means like a "demon hissing in the wind". It describes the sound of the stick whooshing through the air. I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept to grasp...

It's an easy enough concept to grasp. Just kind find a citation for it. The only hit I get on google for "“风中魔啸” is your post on this thread. With baidu I get bubkis.. At least it scans right. Meh. As an abreviation for “风中魔啸” "feng mo" works. Kind of funny the big super secret explanation is for the new wushu set while the old timey traditional name is well known. "A demon whistling in the wind" is readable. A "wind demon" is not.

Adding "stick" to them as a third character doesn't somehow make the first characters mean the same thing, as Omar suggested.

Not as a linguistic rule, sure. But as a context clue, it does because "feng mo" staff, is such a well known phrase that when typing in Chinese with predictive text, the 3 characters pop up together. Heck, just as a test, I just type the letters "fmg" and 风魔棍 pops up with 疯魔 as a secondary choice.

Anyways, fine, I'll accept that around the Shaolin temple these days, 风中魔啸 is how they explain it. The other 90% of what I was saying, I can see you were already saying 4 or 5 years ago.

================================================== =======

Ah, didn't see that! My theory collapsed! If so, the new case will be: These are "exactly" the same: Mad Devil!

further opinions??

Well, FWIW, LJF has convinced me of the alternate explanation, at least around the current temple. As far as linguistics go, getting all proscriptive is a lost cause. If people are using it the other way, then it has another meaning regardless of whether it's "correct" (in quotes) or not. It wouldn't be the first time pop culture, Chinese or American, has gone and made up new meanings for stuff. I was listening to a Chinese educational podcast the other day (popup Chinese btw, fantastic learning tool and their partner Sinica is super interesting for keeping up with Chinese news and trends) and the topic for the week was "Chinese proverbs that Chinese people all get wrong". They discussed 4 or 5 Chinese proverbs that almost everybody in China uses wrong. lol.

So seriously, anyone wanting to learn a little Chinese or who has already learned a lot but wants to polish up a bit: http://popupchinese.com/

hey, omarthefish, in order to confirm what you said for us, can you provide us with a link to that in baike?? (most of us are not familiar with Chinese resources and use Google translator! )

I'm sorry. Baike is basically the Chinese equivalent to Wikipedia. There is an actual Chinese wikipedia but nobody really uses it. Baike is fully integrated with baidu which is basically mainland China's equivalent to google. So one of the two things I tend to do when I hear a Chinese phrase that I am not sure about is to just baidu (www.baidu.com) and see how other people are using it. I don't mean looking it up like a dictionary. I mean just seeing people's blogs or discussion boards and watching how other Chinese people use the phrase. The second thing I do, if it's convenient at the time, is ask my (Chinese) wife.

That's for popular usage. For official usage, my first "goto" is baike, which is usually in the top 3 or 4 hits for a word of phrase searched for without context. Anyways, in this case, I got this:

http://baike.baidu.com/view/44641.htm

　1、指发疯，癫狂。《云笈七签》卷一一九：“亲戚家女使，近患风魔疾，尚未甚困。” 元 张可久 《汉东山》曲：“ 蓝采和，没奈何，假风魔。”《西游补》第六回：“﹝行者﹞登时粧做风魔之状，呆睁着两眼对着项王道：‘还我 头来！’”
　　2、指人痴呆、糊涂。 元 无名氏 《谢金吾》第二折：“你也心儿里精细不风魔。”
　　3、疯子。 元 王子一 《误入桃源》第三折：“这两个汉子是风魔，是九伯。” 元 无名氏 《马陵道》第三折：“白日与小儿同耍，到晚来与羊犬同眠，打也不知，骂也不知，端的是个风魔了 也。”
　　4、形容言行轻狂、放浪不羁。 金 董解元 《西厢记诸宫调》卷一：“秀才家那箇不风魔；大抵这箇酸丁忒劣角，风魔中占得箇招讨。” 元 曾瑞 《端正好·自序》套曲：“教人道我，豪放风魔。”《醒世姻缘传》第一百回：“依随着他，上庙就去上庙，游山 就去游山，耍金鱼池，看韦公寺，风魔了个足心足意。”
　　5、指迷惑。谓使人着魔。 金 董解元 《西厢记诸宫调》卷一：“那多情媚脸儿，那鹘鴒渌老儿，难道不清雅？见人不住偷睛抹，被你风魔 了人也嗏。” 元 王实甫 《西厢记》第一本第一折：“刚刚的打箇照面，风

What I didn't find was any popular usage or dictionary reference matching LFJ's claim. Wife says there's no such thing as a "wind devil" and LFJ has nothing in his profile to indicate he knows what he knows.

As it stands now though, I'm convinced. Someone changed my opinion in an online argument. Better bring your umbrellas folks because it might be raining frogs today. Cat's and dogs are making friends even as we speak . . .

[LFJ]

Note that I'm not saying 风中魔啸 is a traditional Chinese idiom, nor that "wind devil" is a traditional concept either. But this is indeed how they explain the name of the stick sets using the wind character.

As I said, they are usually modern sets with lots of running, jumping, and whooshing about. So it is likely that they took the naming idea from 疯魔 and deliberately used 风魔 with the individual characters describing how the sets sound.

Not that it would immediately be understand as such, but context is important, and that's just how they explain it. Rather than making a new name, or using another common idiom, they took the existing concept and reinterpreted it.

[LFJ]

He said the common name Ape-monkey Stick, Yuanhoubang (猿猴棒), could also be a ****nym of Flame-fire (firework) Stick, Yanhuobang (焰火棒).

Many stick sets have ape-monkey names in their lyrics, which is often in reference to the Monkey King, Sun Wukong. Some even directly use his name. Such lyrics are often an afterthought to the sets, which aren't in fact based on any ape-monkey combat style.

[LFJ]

That's funny. Hom0nym got censored for hom0...