Kung Fu Sparring League

[Frost]

Everyone has an opinion about MA and how they should work etc. Opinions are like as$holes.... everyone's got 1 and they all small bad. Sorry DJ, I was not offended by Frost's post. Frost and I differ on opinion but he keeps to the subject and does not troll on us TCMA's like some other peeps I will not mention.

Frost: Legitamate art forms Thai boxing, wrestling are good MA. It is not the art form I am talking about, it is mainly the fighters themselves. A lot of people fighting in today's combat sports look like they are not learning a legitamate fighting style or art form (this is just my opinion). More like they have grosely traded power lifting and getting into shape, for Martial Arts skill.

Lets agree that anyone that spends time with resistant opponents (bjj, mma, sc, judo etc etc) will be better in MA than a person who does not have any resistance training.

However, just because someone rolls around (whether it be bjj or mma etc) does mean they are learning a legitamate MA. It just means that they are good rolling around and not neccessarily good at other aspects of Martial Arts training.

I can take any big thug with no real MA training and throw him in the ring with the same size person with mma or bjj skill and he will do fine. Not because the bjj guy sucked but, because general mma or bjj is something you can just do! Anyone can jump in the ring and hold there own. Not because the other guy is bad at mma but because mma and bjj are primal / instictive skills that we all have inside us.

did that explain it a bit for ya Frost? just my opinion.

ginosifu

it did and whilst i disagree with you for the same reasons golden arms did, BJJ and MMA are not primal instinctive, indeed BJJ is counter intuitive as i is clinch fighting and things you do instinctively: grab the head, push away with straight arms etc will get you destroyed in both MMA and grappling, i respect your opinion

Oh and i knew i didnt upset you because we have had these discussions before and you unlike some people are level headed and secure in yourself and your skills

[bawang]

Primal / insticntive skills such as a round kick to the thigh, over / under hooks takedown, basic wrestling etc etc; need no practice or training. Might as well lift some weights and become a meathead so you can grab a guy and squeeze tight and lay on the ground together.

funny words coming from a man who practices mongolian barbarian brute force wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

Primal / insticntive skills such as a round kick to the thigh, over / under hooks takedown, basic wrestling etc etc; need no practice or training. Might as well lift some weights and become a meathead so you can grab a guy and squeeze tight and lay on the ground together.

ginosifu

Got to disagree with you on the not needing practice and training. I'd say well over half the people I've seen in TMA can't throw a low round kick for crap. (And I train traditional arts.)
Most people simply don't turn the hip over properly and end up slicing upwards with no power, in spite of being told over and over. I think most people are lazy and if you don't train the low roundhouse properly, you won't get the power that should be there.
It is instinctive, but so is wildly swinging with no focus. These instincts need to be refined into something more usable.

[Syn7]

Primal / insticntive skills such as a round kick to the thigh, over / under hooks takedown, basic wrestling etc etc; need no practice or training. Might as well lift some weights and become a meathead so you can grab a guy and squeeze tight and lay on the ground together.

I would love to see you stuck in a room with a meathead wrestler. You don't know what defenceless feels like until a high level grappler shuts you down.

Insert all your theories of how you can fend off somebody well trained and stronger than you here ______________________________

[Syn7]

lol it wasnt just me then who spotted that

You are not alone.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The idea and design of this particular form of sparring league stems from two distinct concepts:

1. The games approach to teaching sports
2. Ladder league competition.

The games approach to teaching sports

reduces the technical demands (skill techniques) of the game so as to help players concentrate on learning the tactical components of effective play. The skill techniques of sports should be introduced in the later stages... this can be done by presenting carefully thought out lead-up games and challenges that help players learn the tactical essentials of the sport.
http://www.pelinks4u.org/bookreviews/playpractice.htm

To that end, the sparring leagues and divisions provide progressive rulesets, allowing the student/competitor to effectively learn, practice, explore and apply the tactics which each ruleset focuses on.

Ladder league competition is, in my opinion, the best ranking system available for one-on-one sports that occur over more than one meet/event. It's "King of the Hill" in organized form. The idea is to get to the top of a division, or to gain enough points in order to progress to the next "game"; competitors WILL develop the skillets at their own pace by default as they accumulate points/experience and rise up in the rankings.

Initially, I was going to offer this setup as an amateur sparring league, similar to a "squash league", and have it be open to everyone. I would ref, and we would meet every weekend.

I think it would great if a bunch of local clubs adopted the same rule sets, ran their own house leagues, and got together for end-of season elimination tournaments, where the house leagues would bring the top 3-5 competitors in each league and each division. Could be loads of fun.

Note: Some people really enjoy particular subsets of sparring and have no interest in others. The "Elite Division" mentioned at the beginning is simply an open division that allows ppl with more than 450 points to keep competing in the same league if they want to, without being obliged to change leagues.

[ginosifu]

funny words coming from a man who practices mongolian barbarian brute force wrestling.

Actually my Shuai Chiao is very Tai Chi ish. There are no brute force throws, mostly throws with nuetralizing and absorbing.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

mongolian barbarian brute force wrestling.

SC is "the sport of strength".

The "brute force wrestling" is a very imporatant training stage that all SC guys have to go through. If you can hold on your opponent in such way that he can't even move (it's not hard to do with SC jacket on and if you have a pair of monster grips and also understand "shaking"), you have just taken away all your opponent's offense skill. Whenever that you want to attack will be up to you.

http://imageshack.us/a/img859/982/deadlock.png

The moment that you touch your opponent, the moment that he is flying. That only work if you are much better than your opponent.

[pazman]

1. The games approach to teaching sports

A friend of mine in China wanted to pursue a career in teaching gongfu. Neighborhood wushuguan's aren't a real money maker in China...taekwondo has the market cornered. He realized that teaching gongfu in the traditional manner wasn't going to pay the bills so he asked me to design a curriculum that was more modern, yet could still retain the material of traditional methods. I designed a curriculum that contained something similar to what you've done, though yours is much more detailed. Here are the stages:

Boxing
Kickboxing
Sumo (ring control and throwing skills)
Full Sanda (emphasizing throwing and leg catching)

Parallel to these stages he could train and test for whatever traditional methods he chose. I also suggested spear sparring, since that would also develop good gongfu.

It might take an average person a few years to by able to be proficient at Sanda. At this point you can give them their "black belt" and teach them all the traditional stuff they want.

I think once a person develops a good sense of timing and distance and has some basic fight experience, he's ready to learn some of nuanced skills gongfu has to offer.

[bawang]

He realized that teaching gongfu in the traditional manner wasn't going to pay the bills

shouldve stopped right ther

SC is "the sport of strength".

thank you for agreeing with me, baba.

[YouKnowWho]

I think once a person develops a good sense of timing and distance and has some basic fight experience, he's ready to learn some of nuanced skills gongfu has to offer.

Today, people may have wrong impression about TCMA. If you can use your "foot sweep" to take down 80% of your opponent, you have good Gongfu, otherwise, you don't. Too many people spend all their training time in performance, health, self-cultivation, inner peace, ...Not enough people spend their training time to make just one technique work (such as hook punch, side kick, elbow lock, foot sweep, single leg, ...). The day that you die, you should be proud of yourself that you have developed many useful skills in your life, and not how many forms that you can perform.

A: What form have you learned in the past 3 month?
B: I have learned .... How about you?
A: I'm still working on my "foot sweep".
B: When will your teacher teach you any forms?
A: My teacher told me when I'm too old to compete in tournament, he will teach me all the forms that I want to learn and he know more than 50 forms.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Too many people spend all their training time in performance, health, self-cultivation, inner peace

Martial Arts is not only a great way to learn self-defense or improve your physical health; it is also a great way to temper the mind. Throughout the ages, Monks, Warriors and Philosophers discovered that sport combat was a very effective method of developing awareness, focus, and clarity.

Studies by modern scholars such as Malcolm Gladwell have revealed the importance of hands-on experience for developing elite levels of skill. Researchers such as V.J. Ramachandran have shown the intimate connection between brain and body health.

The Kung Fu sparring league combines Traditional Martial Arts training with the natural developmental effects of sport combat and the modern insights of sports education in order to provide high quality training and exciting competitive experiences which will improve both well-being and skill.

Pazman: cool. You're right in seeing the league as a curriculum.

[Syn7]

shouldve stopped right ther


thank you for agreeing with me, baba.

Every wrestler I know is stronger than their MA counterparts. Just my experience. I also noticed that farmboys make great wrestlers.

[Syn7]

Too many people spend all their training time in performance, health, self-cultivation, inner peace...

I think those are very honourable reasons for training. I only have issue with it when it is presented as combat effective from some cat who has never actually been in a real fight with a real opponent. It's dangerous, not just fraud. Some guy who has never fought before should not be telling young women they can defend themselves with their techniques until they have been tried and tested. Hitting a semi compliant dude in a padded suit isn't enough. A false sense of security is more dangerous than knowing better. That being said, some of my fondest MA memories are training with old men who don't even think about combat.

[YouKnowWho]

Every wrestler I know is stronger than their MA counterparts. Just my experience. I also noticed that farmboys make great wrestlers.

Because your training partner is your weight training. If you can use your firemen's carry to life up your 250 lb training partner over your head, you can't be in too bad body shape yourself. Old Chinese saying said, "1 year wrestling training will make you stronger than 3 years solo form training."