Why don't you test your skill in MMA gym when you are still young?

[MightyB]

well - if you cross train, you realize it's all Jeet Kune Do in the end.

[pateticorecords]

Choy Lay Fut Vs. Bagua http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWQvEFxCoZI

[sanjuro_ronin]

All MA were created and developed for fighting with fighting in mind, that is THE tradition of MA.
Anyone that does NOT fight and test their MA skills in the best possible way, is going against the very tradition of MA and should be ashamed to call themselves a "traditionalist" much less a MA.
One certainly does not need to fight all their "MA lives", there comes a time when, perhaps, too much fighting can be detrimental to MA development even, BUT no one well ever develop themselves to an decent level in a MA without fighting.

[MightyB]

Choy Lay Fut Vs. Bagua http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWQvEFxCoZI

Aww Man - at 1:29 he missed his chance to give his opponent a good ol' fashioned ol' skool Kimura Teabagging.

[pateticorecords]

Aww Man - at 1:29 he missed his chance to give his opponent a good ol' fashioned ol' skool Kimura Teabagging.

hahahaha... too funny.

I like the video because you can see their styles in action plus they are hitting each other pretty hard too...lol

[jimbob]

All MA were created and developed for fighting with fighting in mind, that is THE tradition of MA.
Anyone that does NOT fight and test their MA skills in the best possible way, is going against the very tradition of MA and should be ashamed to call themselves a "traditionalist" much less a MA.
One certainly does not need to fight all their "MA lives", there comes a time when, perhaps, too much fighting can be detrimental to MA development even, BUT no one well ever develop themselves to an decent level in a MA without fighting.

Sanjuro

Respectfully, I think we need to distinguish between what were arts of civil self defence, and arts that were designed for mutual confrontation. The second lot are what I would call "fighting'' arts - boxing, muay thai, wrestling, judo... - yes they're also sports, but they're specifically developed to go against other athletically trained practitioners who are trying to best you in mutually agreed upon competition.

The self defence arts are what I think of as the TMA's. The initial intention was to protect someone against an unexpected attack. Of course, they have themselves developed (many of them anyway) along more sporting lines, but you often see the result when you put an art from this self defence tradition against an art that has specifically prepared a person to fight someone with equal skills and training - they don't fare well. I don't think an art like Wing Chun, for example, competes that well with Muay Thai - because their initial goals were different.

I agree with you 100% that if you promote yourself as a 'practitioner of fighting' you should be testing yourself and your skills at every opportunity. I don't necessarily see self defence as fighting or fighting as self defence though - and there are many many TMA's who are perhaps trying to 'fight' without the necessary basis in mutual combat. You can only adapt self defence techniques so far for the ring/cage. If learning to protect oneself is the goal, then pressure testing is certainly necessary, but may not need to come from ring/cage/tournament experience.

[YouKnowWho]

MMA didnot exist in the previous generation. How to modify your (general YOU) technique to work for the modern MMA environment is your responsibility. If you don't try your skill in MMA environment, you may not even know that you will need to modify your technique.

According to SC rule, if any 2 points of your body touch the ground first, you lose that round and that round is over. You would never use "pull guard" in SC tournament because you just gave your opponent a free round. When a SC guy was dragged down by "pull guard" the 1st time, it could be a shocking experience. His new experience would force him to adapt his strategy not to be dragged down again. His entering strategy (use 90 degree entering instead of body spin), defense strategy (use more cracking and leg springing) will need to be modified and that's a good thing because in street fight, there will be no rules.

I don't like to look at this as style vs. style. To me, the WC chain punches is just like the boxing, jab, cross, jab, cross, ... When I was 11, I was taught to drill "1 step 3 punches" and nothing else for 3 years. In those 3 years, I didn't know what style that I was training. Even today, I still don't know "1 step 3 punches" training is for "self defence" or "mutual confrontation" but trying to land all 3 of my punches on my oppponent's head.

[IronFist]

well - if you cross train, you realize it's all Jeet Kune Do in the end.

Cool pic. I've never seen that one before and I have a bunch of books on Bruce Lee.

[jimbob]

MMA didnot exist in the previous generation. How to modify your (general YOU) technique to work for the modern MMA environment is your responsibility. If you don't try your skill in MMA environment, you may not even know that you will need to modify your technique.


I don't like to look at this as style vs. style. To me, the WC chain punches is just like the boxing, jab, cross, jab, cross, ... When I was 11, I was taught to drill "1 step 3 punches" and nothing else for 3 years. In those 3 years, I didn't know what style that I was training. Even today, I still don't know "1 step 3 punches" training is for "self defence" or "mutual confrontation" but trying to land all 3 of my punches on my oppponent's head.

John - I agree with everything you say here. My point was that there are many (many) schools - not just Chinese based ones - that either haven't modified their technique to see if it works under pressure, or if they have, they haven't done it with good experience, yet still present themselves as 'fighting' arts.

I also agree - style vs style doesn't make a lot of sense because it's only 2 arms and 2 legs. Strangely enough, I referenced the wing chun/thai because of a conversation I had years back with a senior student in one of Australia's wing chun schools. I was saying to him the chain punch could just as easily be a jab/straight/straight combo - but he insisted it wouldn't then be wing chun because the elbow wasn't down and the hands didn't roll across each other and blah blah blah. Then I saw him get knocked out by a thai style fighter, who hit him with a jab/cross combo.

[IronFist]

I was saying to him the chain punch could just as easily be a jab/straight/straight combo - but he insisted it wouldn't then be wing chun because the elbow wasn't down and the hands didn't roll across each other and blah blah blah.

I agree with the student.

Styles have certain techniques. Wing Chun punches look like Wing Chun punches. If you are doing a boxing jab and cross, it's not a chain punch, and it's not a Wing Chun punch, and it's not Wing Chun.

This is why, when TMA dudes spar and it "looks like kickboxing," it is kickboxing.

Some people will say that it is still the original style because you're applying the same principles. This is wrong.

A Wing Chun punch, a TKD punch, an Isshinryu punch, and a boxing punch are all different. They all have the same principles (hit your opponent using efficient energy, etc.), but they are all different techniques. If a Wing Chun dude throws a horizontal fist boxing cross, he doesn't get to say he used a Wing Chun technique. If he did it from a Wing Chun stance, then sure it's some hybrid.

This is part of the reason we can tell which techniques are most effective in fighting; by watching and seeing who wins and what they did, and then looking at what styles use those techniques and train them in a realistic manner.