Bruce Lee

[anerlich]

I dunno Glenn, I don't really think anyone here really has problems realising that what BL did wasn't WC, and I don't think anyone actually worships him.

Not easy to find WC inspiration in this world, let alone this forum, you have to take it where you can find it.

Nothing wrong with this, though you have to wonder about about the mental state of those talking about circle jerks and nuthugging in the context ...

[LFJ]

Ok, so lets say he is a good fighter, what do you hope to garnish from this to improve you, as a martial artist/fighter?

Im sure he trained very hard, had considerable talent and was somewhat revolutionary for his time......... but isnt it time WC people looked forward rather than back?

I honestly don't care one way or the other. My thing is not so much about Bruce Lee. I haven't even seen all his movies all the way through. I get antsy sitting around too long, so I hardly ever watch movies.

It's just the comment that one can't be a fighter if one doesn't have an official record. I don't know if it's insulting people's intelligence to pretend they actually believe what they're saying, but somehow I hope they don't. It's just plain stupid.

Plenty of martial arts teachers aren't sport fighting athletes. I assume we'd want to learn to fight from a good fighter. I wonder how many WC practitioners here saying things like this have Sifus with a sport fighting record...

[GlennR]

I dunno Glenn, I don't really think anyone here really has problems realising that what BL did wasn't WC, and I don't think anyone actually worships him.

Id like to agree with you, but there seems to be a few that want to see something thats not there...... an unbeatable killing machine who had profound wisdom in all things combat

Not easy to find WC inspiration in this world, let alone this forum, you have to take it where you can find it.

I guess thats my point, lets get some guys that inspire us (and the new folks) now, Alans guys are doing a great job at that, shame there arent more.

Nothing wrong with this, though you have to wonder about about the mental state of those talking about circle jerks and nuthugging in the context ...

Lets be honest, if youve been on this forum as long as you, me and some of the others... youd have to question our own mental state!

[GlennR]

It's just the comment that one can't be a fighter if one doesn't have an official record. I don't know if it's insulting people's intelligence to pretend they actually believe what they're saying, but somehow I hope they don't. It's just plain stupid.

But boy that record still helps.
Look i can only go from my own experience and having gone from a pure WC line with only a bit of sparring to a mixture of WC, MT and boxing with a lot of sparring that im a better fighter, sport or self defense, period.
So regarding the argument about who are the better fighters, on the whole id say sports combat guys.

BUT, there is, as in all walks of life, exceptions to the rule.

Plenty of martial arts teachers aren't sport fighting athletes. I assume we'd want to learn to fight from a good fighter. I wonder how many WC practitioners here saying things like this have Sifus with a sport fighting record...

They wont, not sure of the point your trying to make here?

[LFJ]

Look i can only go from my own experience and having gone from a pure WC line with only a bit of sparring to a mixture of WC, MT and boxing with a lot of sparring that im a better fighter, sport or self defense, period.

Of course, going from anything with only a bit of sparring to whatever with a lot of sparring is obviously going to make you a better fighter...

So regarding the argument about who are the better fighters, on the whole id say sports combat guys.

Sports combat guys vs who? WC practitioners who barely spar, much less actually fight? Obviously...

Who would be the better fighter between one who spars a lot and one who actually fights a lot (assuming style, aptitude, etc. is the same)?

If you say the one who spars, then you're just as illusioned by sports about what fighting is as that Bacon guy who says you need a record or you're not a fighter.

They wont, not sure of the point your trying to make here?

Same point. Plenty of WCK Sifus are excellent fighters with practical experience, but don't have official records because they aren't sport fighting athletes. I wonder if Bacon's WCK Sifu has an official record. If not, he shouldn't be learning to fight from a non-fighter.

[GlennR]

Of course, going from anything with only a bit of sparring to whatever with a lot of sparring is obviously going to make you a better fighter...

Its amazing the bites you can get with a bit of bait.

Sports combat guys vs who? WC practitioners who barely spar, much less actually fight? Obviously...

Sports guys verses anyone. Seriously, the level of intensity they train when preparing for a fight, if done properly, is confronting.
Im honest enough to say that it opened my eyes when i stepped into a Muay Thai gym.
I assume youve experienced the same when you visited and trained at a similar gym?

Who would be the better fighter between one who spars a lot and one who actually fights a lot (assuming style, aptitude, etc. is the same)?

Before we go on, whats your experience of high level sparring?

If you say the one who spars, then you're just as illusioned by sports about what fighting is as that Bacon guy who says you need a record or you're not a fighter.

Its disillusioned
So who are these guys that "fight a lot"???

Same point. Plenty of WCK Sifus are excellent fighters with practical experience, but don't have official records because they aren't sport fighting athletes. I wonder if Bacon's WCK Sifu has an official record. If not, he shouldn't be learning to fight from a non-fighter

How do you know they are excellent fighters?
Hearsay?
Rumours?
Reputation?
Bulging arms with impressive tattoos?
Impressive use of the chinese language in chi-sao demonstrations?

So the inference is that you've "experienced a lot of real fighting" with your WC skills.
Care to elaborate?

[LFJ]

Before we go on, whats your experience of high level sparring?

If it's sparring, death by intentional excessive force or the use of weapons is not a risk.

Its disillusioned

Thanks, but that's the antonym. To be disillusioned by sports you must have first been illusioned, which you still are if you think sparring is the same as fighting.

So who are these guys that "fight a lot"???

Fighters.

How do you know they are excellent fighters?

Observance.

So the inference is that you've "experienced a lot of real fighting" with your WC skills.
Care to elaborate?

Did I actually infer anything about myself? But sure, I've used it. Have you not?

[GlennR]

If it's sparring, death by intentional excessive force or the use of weapons is not a risk.

Well surely a good hard round or three with a MT guy would be a breeze with you...... as long as he "aint packing" hey?

Thanks, but that's the antonym. To be disillusioned by sports you must have first been illusioned, which you still are if you think sparring is the same as fighting.

You havent sparred have you?

Fighters.

Talkers

Observance.

Ignorance

Did I actually infer anything about myself? But sure, I've used it. Have you not?

Yes, casting firm opinions about hard sparring AND fighting (as you have) would suggest youve done both.
You obviously havent, i have, so you really are coming from a point of inexperience.

Any pointers i can give you?
Im feeling generous today.

[LFJ]

lol...

Okay. So hard sparring and actual fighting are exactly the same to you? You must have been lucky to fight some nice fellas who weren't trying to actually kill you.

[GlennR]

lol...

Okay. So hard sparring and actual fighting are exactly the same to you? You must have been lucky to fight some nice fellas who weren't trying to actually kill you.

You still haven't discussed with me the experiences you have had with Mt, boxing etc in a full contact environment.

You must have missed my question about your experiences.

So could you let us know about your experiences that led you to your sparring v fighting conclusions?

[LFJ]

Sure, I have my own experience, but is it difficult to understand that no matter how hard you spar, no one is actually trying to kill the other person?

How many deaths have occurred in the octagon or at your gym?
How many deaths have resulted from fights on the street?

A guy just got killed at the busstop outside my home a couple weeks ago. There's still a huge bloodstain across the road where he bled out. The attacker didn't stop when he "tapped" or when the "ref" stepped in. He just killed the hell out of him until he died.

But you're telling me sparring and fighting are the same, right?

[GlennR]

But you're telling me sparring and fighting are the same, right?

I never said that, what i did say was that from my experience sports trained fighters, and im talking boxers, Mt, MMA and BJJ guys, are better fighters due to their training which involves A LOT of sparring.

In most cases, IMO, that will make a better fighter

Its just more real, it involves pain, fear, adrenalin, aggression, fitness and discipline than what i have seen in the traditional styles.

Ive experienced both.

Youve enjoyed your cheap shot about my "bit" of sparring i did as a WC guy, so now that ive given my experience man up and give me/us yours in both areas, or admit youre limited in your experience ,and shouldnt have shot your, all to noisy, mouth off.

[LFJ]

Okay. It sure seemed like that's what you were saying when I said sparring and fighting aren't the same and from that you assumed I haven't sparred, then questioned how I came to my sparring vs fighting conclusion.

I first trained other traditional styles when I took up martial arts. It was Qixing Tanglangquan and Songshan Shaolin, both of which involved a lot of heaving sparring every day, and not just sanda competition style, but hooks in the eyes, nut shots, knees, elbows and all. As brutal as it got, no one ever tried to kill me.

Later on when I became a teacher, in my first place I had both Boxing instructors and a MT instructor from Thailand teaching out of the same space. I did hard sparring with them as well. Their styles were different, but didn't make a difference in how we sparred. And we still never tried to kill each other.

I've also defended myself from people actually trying to kill me using the same skills. But it's not like sparring, no matter how hard you go. In sparring, you're trying to beat the other guy and not get hit. You know at the end of the day you might go home injured, but you're going home. In fighting, you're just trying to get out alive. The reality is worlds apart and no amount of sparring really prepares you for that. The mentality is all different.

[GlennR]

Okay. It sure seemed like that's what you were saying when I said sparring and fighting aren't the same and from that you assumed I haven't sparred, then questioned how I came to my sparring vs fighting conclusion.

I first trained other traditional styles when I took up martial arts. It was Qixing Tanglangquan and Songshan Shaolin, both of which involved a lot of heaving sparring every day, and not just sanda competition style, but hooks in the eyes, nut shots, knees, elbows and all. As brutal as it got, no one ever tried to kill me.

Later on when I became a teacher, in my first place I had both Boxing instructors and a MT instructor from Thailand teaching out of the same space. I did hard sparring with them as well. Their styles were different, but didn't make a difference in how we sparred. And we still never tried to kill each other.

I've also defended myself from people actually trying to kill me using the same skills. But it's not like sparring, no matter how hard you go. In sparring, you're trying to beat the other guy and not get hit. You know at the end of the day you might go home injured, but you're going home. In fighting, you're just trying to get out alive. The reality is worlds apart and no amount of sparring really prepares you for that. The mentality is all different.

Finally, thankyou for that.

It seems you do have a good experience of sparring.

Back to the conversation. My point is that i feel that the hard ,often confronting ,sparring and training in above mentioned styles IS a good grounding for street survival as oppose to MOST of the traditional WC out there.

You seem to disagree so id ask wjat you don in your WC training that helps with the street survival

[LFJ]

My point is that i feel that the hard ,often confronting ,sparring and training in above mentioned styles IS a good grounding for street survival as oppose to MOST of the traditional WC out there.

You seem to disagree so id ask wjat you don in your WC training that helps with the street survival

I don't disagree.

If I didn't have the sparring experience I had, I'd likely be dead or crippled. And I've seen plenty of traditionalists who after years of poor, unrealistic training, couldn't defend themselves for anything. As a teacher, I've had people come in who had been training for 10+ years in another traditional style school, and while their forms were not bad, 3 month students wiped the floor with them in sparring. It was embarrassing to watch.

My thing is that still, sparring is not fighting. People who have experienced that reality will be more prepared to deal with it again, no matter what sort of official record one has from sport competitions. And that is not a prerequisite to being a good fighter.

Things to do in training to prepare for street survival would be setting up more realistic scenarios than sparring in a ring. Going outside to the alleyway. Being cornered and attacked by more than one opponent using more than fists and feet. You may get "killed" several times in the process, but that is far more useful of an experience than 1on1 in the ring with a ref, timer, etc..