No Style

[YouKnowWho]

In combat when you stand face to face with your opponent, the "front cut (osoto gari)" may be the most nature way to take your opponent down. You use your hands to do your hand's job and use your leg to do your leg job, which is different from the wrestling single leg or double legs that you use your hand to do your leg job.

[YouKnowWho]

Most TCMA teachers teach students forms. The teacher then explains the application. This approach has a problem.

In the following longfist San Lu Pao Quan 三路炮拳 at 1.18 - 1.19. There is a groin kick, face punch combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLnVHNGsSno

It follows the kick low, and punch high principle. The form creator may assumed that his opponent dropped down leading arm to block the kick. He then punches at the exposed face. What if his opponent raises his leg to block the kick. Since his opponent's arms may still be on guard. He should add a left hand move to open his opponent's guard before he can punch at the face.

Will most teachers explain both cases during form application? What if the teacher only cover the 1st case? When will his student learn the 2nd case situation? Wait for another form that cover that situation?

If you teach how to use a groin kick to set up a face punch, you will cover all cases. You don't have to be restricted by a form that someone created long time ago.

[xinyidizi]

Most TCMA teachers teach students forms. The teacher then explains the application. This approach has a problem.

In the following longfist San Lu Pao Quan 三路炮拳 at 1.18 - 1.19. There is a groin kick, face punch combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLnVHNGsSno

It follows the kick low, and punch high principle. The form creator may assumed that his opponent dropped down leading arm to block the kick. He then punches at the exposed face. What if his opponent raises his leg to block the kick. Since his opponent's arms may still be on guard. He should add a left hand move to open his opponent's guard before he can punch at the face.

Will most teachers explain both cases during form application? What if the teacher only cover the 1st case? When will his student learn the 2nd case situation? Wait for another form that cover that situation?

If you teach how to use a groin kick to set up a face punch, you will cover all cases. You don't have to be restricted by a form that someone created long time ago.

I think you have too much expectations from forms. Don't you think trying to fit everything in forms is unnecessary? Forms have never been the ultimate goal in TCMA as far as I know. They are just for teaching the students how to move their bodies and I think they are very efficient instruments for that purpose. Probably single moves are like learning the alphabet, forms/combinations are like making words and partner drills are like learning to make example sentences. When you learn a language you also follow that order but it's unnecessary and impossible to learn all the possible sentences that can be made with the whole vocabulary of the language because after doing the basic training you can go out and start communicating with people. There you will face a lot of new situations that were not in your books but if you have a good foundation you will learn to make your own sentences as you communicate with people.
My experience is very limited and I don't know how it works in other styles but in Xinyi the combat training starts in sparring or doing drills with the teacher and in them the teacher can teach lots of variations in the moves as well as changing between them but in order to learn anything out of it that way the student needs to have internalized body movements in doing empty hand moves. A student who has a good jibengong will learn everything quickly but a student who hasn't done the jibengong and wants to jump into combat training will stand there like a zombie unless he has a natural talent but leaving everything to talent is inefficient for most people.

[MightyB]

I think you have too much expectations from forms. Don't you think trying to fit everything in forms is unnecessary? Forms have never been the ultimate goal in TCMA as far as I know. They are just for teaching the students how to move their bodies and I think they are very efficient instruments for that purpose.

Or so we "say" but don't "do". YKW posted on another thread with a link to a style I had never heard of, so I googled it to see some video. Lo and behold you can find a sh*t ton of forms, but no real applications. Sadly I see this too often. You do a search for kung fu stuff, you find forms, a lot of forms, and cooperative "applications", and when you do find sparring type of stuff, a lot of it isn't good. YKW is voicing his position and it comes from a legitimate TCMA background. If he's saying there's a problem, people need to stop arguing so much and ask why he's seeing one. Actually he's been doing a good job talking in detail from a perspective based on a lifetime of experience.

[xinyidizi]

Or so we "say" but don't "do". YKW posted on another thread with a link to a style I had never heard of, so I googled it to see some video. Lo and behold you can find a sh*t ton of forms, but no real applications. Sadly I see this too often. You do a search for kung fu stuff, you find forms, a lot of forms, and cooperative "applications", and when you do find sparring type of stuff, a lot of it isn't good. YKW is voicing his position and it comes from a legitimate TCMA background. If he's saying there's a problem, people need to stop arguing so much and ask why he's seeing one. Actually he's been doing a good job talking in detail from a perspective based on a lifetime of experience.

Everyone who wants to learn good TCMA that can turn you into a fighter knows that there is something very very wrong with the current situation but I believe the order of doing things in TCMA is not wrong. The problem is that due to unnecessary secrecy and/or laziness most of the people who call themselves teachers haven't done the combat training properly.

[MightyB]

Everyone who wants to learn good TCMA that can turn you into a fighter knows that there is something very very wrong with the current situation but I believe the order of doing things in TCMA is not wrong. The problem is that due to unnecessary secrecy and/or laziness most of the people who call themselves teachers haven't done the combat training properly.

and this is part of the point and philosophy that YKW and others have been pushing. I agree with them on some points and disagree on others.

Personally I have a love/hate relationship with forms. I view them in different lights depending on my mood or if I've had what I consider a personal breakthrough regarding them.

I think ultimately forms were a way for a teacher to try and preserve some aspect of themselves and incorporate it into the art. It was probably a favorite combination or theory which they and others built on. As a whole, we probably take them too literally. I do believe that you should learn all the forms of a given style in order to claim to be a master of that style because you should show respect to those who came before you in that style. So for that reason alone I'll personally never be a TCMA master. I'd rather spend time on a few forms that appeal to me, do "internal" conditioning with gungs, cross train, and then spar with everybody I meet to see if I can make any of the principles work. It's no longer fun for me to practice without some type of randori, rolling or sparring. When I get old, it'll still be randori, but I'll probably replace striking with push hands or chi sao. (note to self, learn enough wing chun to get to the chi sao drilling stage so I can do it when I'm old).

[xinyidizi]

I think ultimately forms were a way for a teacher to try and preserve some aspect of themselves and incorporate it into the art. It was probably a favorite combination or theory which they and others built on. As a whole, we probably take them too literally. I do believe that you should learn all the forms of a given style in order to claim to be a master of that style because you should show respect to those who came before you in that style. So for that reason alone I'll personally never be a TCMA master. [/I]

In Xinyi we don't have forms except for a short combination called siba but there are many moves and countless combinations that anyone can make for himself (as long as they are not too unrealistic) but no one will master all the moves equally as they are meant for different types of bodies. A legitimate teacher would need to learn them all to be able to teach them to different types of students but for becoming a fighter there is a limited number that one needs to master in sparring. It's a pity that this art is also gradually moving towards becoming a performance art like the others.

[YouKnowWho]

In Xinyi we don't have forms except for a short combination called siba but there are many moves and countless combinations that anyone can make for himself.

XingYi master 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) created one short form for his own practicing. Since the form was too short, he repeated the sequence twice to make it longer. He taught to my teacher as personal training tool but my teacher passed it down anyway. It's called 形精 Xing Jin Quan.

http://shappy.sourceforge.net/yangqg/apfs16.html

Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), people of hejian, Hebei Province House. At the age of 8 from Liu Xiaolan learned bajiquan, 14 years old from the famous Boxing Boxing Guo Yun deep acquisition, and later teacher Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two pointing. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor Good Fight, good practice the martial arts, people are "Liu Erbiao". Representatives of modern boxing art experiment one. Horse Hall of martial arts teacher

[xinyidizi]

XingYi master 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) created one short form for his own practicing. Since the form was too short, he repeated the sequence twice to make it longer. He taught to my teacher as personal training tool but my teacher passed it down anyway. It's called 形精 Xing Jin Quan.

http://shappy.sourceforge.net/yangqg/apfs16.html

Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), people of hejian, Hebei Province House. At the age of 8 from Liu Xiaolan learned bajiquan, 14 years old from the famous Boxing Boxing Guo Yun deep acquisition, and later teacher Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two pointing. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor Good Fight, good practice the martial arts, people are "Liu Erbiao". Representatives of modern boxing art experiment one. Horse Hall of martial arts teacher

I don't know much about xingyi but I think having any fixed forms in xinyi is unnecessary because the moves were designed to flexibly change into other moves and people can design their own forms easily. Of course there are some general rules for designing a form but it's not rocket science.

[LaRoux]

Why can we train like this - no style? Your thought?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLkqwQrCS8

That looks like a style being demonstrated against an compliant partner to me. What makes you think it isn't a style?

[YouKnowWho]

That looks like a style being demonstrated against an compliant partner to me. What makes you think it isn't a style?

You need

- compliant partner for "training".
- non-compliant partner for "testing".

[bawang]

You need

- compliant partner for "training".
- non-compliant partner for "testing".

combat training must always be non compliant

[YouKnowWho]

combat training must always be non compliant

If your opponent just sits on the ground and refuses to stand on his feet, there is no way that you can use him to develop your hip throw. What good is your training partner if he can't help you to develop your technique?

The word compliant and non-compliant are misleading. When you attack, your opponent's non-compliant could mean:

- escape out of,
- resist against it,
- yield into it,
- never give you an opportunity.

If you can run faster than your opponent, even the best striker in the world won't be able to hit you. Is that non-compliant?

[bawang]

If your opponent just sits on the ground and refuses to stand on his feet, there is no way that you can use him to develop your hip throw.

then i crush him under my heel. like jesus christ crush satan.

[Kellen Bassette]

combat training must always be non compliant

I think you need a compliant partner to learn the technique. Then you need a non compliant partner to test it on. Some things you just can't develop in the heat of sparring...at least not well, you need to get the technique down and refine it. Then you can work it with non-compliance.