No Style

[Syn7]

It's not his fault she wanted to share the popcorn! Shit happens...

[YouKnowWho]

Assume the following tools are in your toolbox

1. jab, cross, upper cut, hook punch, hammer punch, back fist, side punch, ...
2. front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, spin kick, ...
3. figer lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ankle lock, ...
4. hip throw, leg twist, leg lift, leg block, single leg, double legs, ...
5. side mount, full mount, arm bar, choke, leg bar, ...

You should learn at least how to:

- use it.
- counter it.
- counter the counters.

That will be a lot information to learn.

Let's take "side kick" as example. you will learn:

- how to set up a side kick.
- use downward block to deflect a side kick.
- depending on you and your opponent are in uniform stance or mirror stance. If in uniform stance, your opponent's left arm will deflect your left side kick to your right, you will then borrow his force, and spin into your right spin back fist. If in mirror stance, your opponent's downward block will spin your body to your left, you then borrow his force, spin your body, and right palm strike at his neck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgFRmExI_ec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyHE3P8eS7I

If you use the "form approach", does your form have:

- side kick?
- downward block (almost all forms has this)?
- side kick, spin back fist combo and side kick, palm chop combo?

Some style doesn't even have side kick. What if your form doesn't have side kick, spin back fist combo or side kick, palm chop combo? What if both combos exist in different forms? What will be the chance that you will learn all those by using "form approach"?

By using "form approach", you may not be able tp learn a technique completely (technique, counter, counter to counters).

[-N-]

If you use the "form approach", does your form have:

- side kick?
- downward block (almost all forms has this)?
- side kick, spin back fist combo and side kick, palm chop combo?

Some style doesn't even have side kick. What if your form doesn't have side kick, spin back fist combo or side kick, palm chop combo? What if both combos exist in different forms? What will be the chance that you will learn all those by using "form approach"?

By using "form approach", you may not be able tp learn a technique completely (technique, counter, counter to counters).

Mantis has forms, and I am not a forms focused person.

But if you are going to study forms, you can't be so literal. There are infinite number of technques and combos. And what about strategies in how to use them? And what about the underlying principles?

So your form doesn't specifically show side kick and spin backfist. Does your form show the principle of turning to use a backfist or other attack? Does it show using it as a followup move?

Well, you might say that it is followup in a combination attack, and not from using the opponent's countering force to power your backfist.

Whether you attack and change to rebound off your attacking force or borrow the other person's force to turn, it is still sensitivity in reacting to the connection. It's all relative and it doesn't matter who is moving towards the other guy.

Or you might say that the form shows a turn, but not from a side kick.

Does your form show the turn from any type of side attack at all? How about after a horse punch? If your form showed a counter to straight punch to the face, would you get confused if the person attacked with straight palm to the face instead?

If your teacher showed you right hip throw, and you never figured out left hip throw, he would yell at you.

There is turning followup attack after your favorite move in Gung Lik Kuen, the beginner's form. After jump in smash to the leg, there is turn, grab, step, and forearm smash. Or if you like the turn, grab, step, hit can be turn and throw.

If you want turning backfist specifically, the 2 person Bung Bo has it as a counter to the wrist break that is shown in the single person form.

It is not against counter to side kick, but once you learn to turn and smash down with backfist, are you going to do it only against wristlock or wrist break? Or are you going to extrapolate?

If the form shows backfist and you are really close to the other guy would you stop yourself from using elbow to the head? Same turning sinking force. Same body mechanics.

If you have right grab, left punch to the face, right horse punch, would you ever do right grab left feint to the face, right kao da?

Would you say it is too far to kao da because that part of the form shows only a small step with the horse punch?

Were there other parts of the form where it showed a sliding in sinking shifting step? You would not look for places to apply that principle for making up distance?

There's a difference between learning forms and studying forms.

Forms show the style or system, but forms are not the style.

Even in boxing, there are different styles even though there are no forms.

[YouKnowWho]

The question is how many people will analysis form in such detail as you have just described? When you learned your forms outdoor with a large group. The teacher might not have time to go into this kind of detail.

[-N-]

The question is how many people will analysis form in such detail as you have just described? When you learned your forms outdoor with a large group. The teacher might not have time to go into this kind of detail.

If you are TCMA, you should be going to that level of detail in understanding the forms.

In the beginning, it is just learning a sequence, but the usage details and understanding have to be there. Or else it's just a useless dance.

The form is just the record of the system. The actual principles and skills need to be extracted and drilled. I don't use forms for fight training.

My teacher did go into a lot of detail. Not all at once, and not every time, though. And if he explained in one context, he expected you to recognize it in another. If you showed that in usage, he would give more advanced material.

The student has to do his part. Not just get everything handed to him.

[-N-]

Here is Marine Corp style.

If you compare the 2 videos, you can see they do "forms". They call them "patterns".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQNWr0cd_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmTX40q6zg

Lol about R.O.K. marines.

[bawang]

Here is Marine Corp style.

If you compare the 2 videos, you can see they do "forms". They call them "patterns".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQNWr0cd_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmTX40q6zg

Lol about R.O.K. marines.

downward elbow???

MARINES LARPER

[Kellen Bassette]

Here is Marine Corp style.

If you compare the 2 videos, you can see they do "forms". They call them "patterns".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQNWr0cd_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmTX40q6zg

Lol about R.O.K. marines.

Every system trains forms. They just may not be complex patterns in the sense of TCMA...without form training all there is is instinctive brawling. Wrestlers, boxers, Thai fighters, Jiu Jitsu players all use form training. There are many different methods of training forms.

[bawang]

thats why pankration is fake wannabe. unless you dance in a circle naked and oiled to flute, you are not training real pankration.

[Kellen Bassette]

thats why pankration is fake wannabe. unless you dance in a circle naked and oiled to flute, you are not training real pankration.

Yes, but there's no reason we can't incorporate that element into or TCMA training as well...

[EarthDragon]

YKW

The question is how many people will analysis form in such detail as you have just described? When you learned your forms outdoor with a large group. The teacher might not have time to go into this kind of detail.

Perhaps this is the problem with some or a lot of the modern sifus in the US.
They fail to show the purpose and importance of the forms, and just teach the movements like dance class.
Hence forms get a bad name and sometimes not taught correctly. I was taught to analize, break down, understand and critique my form until I looked like the bug I was trying mimic.
When you reach this level you realize the important role that forms have in your system.
If your only taught shell you cant get to the yolk. This is also true of Taiji, so many teachers teach the movements, they dont know or dont take the time to explian the application, well what good is the grand ultimate first if you are not taught to punch with it? perhaps a better teacher is what some people need to seek?

[YouKnowWho]

forms get a bad name and sometimes not taught correctly.

The praying mantis system has the best drills. Most of their drills are so long, it almost can be called as form. Drills such as:

1. wrist grab, foot sweep, hook punch, back fist, upper cut, hammer fist, straight punch.
2. back fist, hook, hook, back fist, 3 straight punches to the head, one straight punch to the body.
3. back right palm, right Gou, left chong zhao, right palm, left Diao, right palm.
4. Mo Pan Shou, left Diao, right palm, righ Gou, left Gou, right chong zhao.

Unfortunately most styles just don't create as good forms as the praying mantis system does. Also the praying mantis forms have no hidden moves. Every moves can be map into combat without any modification.

[EarthDragon]

I completly agree, perhaps I am spolied when it comes to pratical forms practice in mantis.

I see your point with bad teachers only teching the show side of thier form and not the combat side.

[Kellen Bassette]

I completly agree, perhaps I am spolied when it comes to pratical forms practice in mantis.

I see your point with bad teachers only teching the show side of thier form and not the combat side.

You weren't spoiled, other people were robbed. I was in MAs for a long time before it dawned on me that not all schools spar hard and drill apps. I always took it for granted.

[-N-]

downward elbow???

Yeah, I was like, wtf???