Thoughts on Pak Sau

[Bacon]

I am not :"taking" anything from the movie-I just enjoyed the movie.

That's fine then. Enjoy the movie.

I began wing chun because I met my sifu,became fascinated with the art and began to try out learning the art in a disciplined hands on way ..not from videos or movies or books or chat lists... and not because of Bruce Lee. But I think his movies got many people interested/started in martial arts and he deserves appreciation for that.

Yes he deserves appreciation for getting people started in martial arts just like Sylvester Stallone deserves appreciation for getting people into boxing. That has nothing to do with one's fighting ability.

And, he probably was a very good fighter-though he made his money in movies.

Probably don't feed the bulldog. Either someone's a fighter and there is credible evidence of that or they're not a fighter. Bruce wasn't a fighter. There are people looking at the movie going "ooh he's such a good fighter and his pak sau is so awesome." Bollocks. He wasn't a fighter, he was an actor. It's a Bruce Lee circle jerk.

[LFJ]

He wasn't a fighter, he was an actor.

It's a mistake to look at movies to judge anyone's actual fighting ability, but did you know him personally? Those who did said the things he did in his movies didn't reflect the way he actually fought, as one should expect. I don't know why anyone should doubt that he was a fighter before getting into movies or away from the camera. What would you be basing that on?

[Bacon]

It's a mistake to look at movies to judge anyone's actual fighting ability, but did you know him personally? Those who did said the things he did in his movies didn't reflect the way he actually fought, as one should expect. I don't know why anyone should doubt that he was a fighter before getting into movies or away from the camera. What would you be basing that on?

I'm not basing it off his movies... No one should. I'm basing it off the fact that he doesnt have a fight record period let alone against any legitimate opponents.

[LFJ]

I'm not basing it off his movies... No one should. I'm basing it off the fact that he doesnt have a fight record period let alone against any legitimate opponents.

What is a fight record? How do you get a fight record? Do you mean an official record in competition? That's sport record, not fighting. How could there be an official record for street fighting? Every time you scrap with some hooligan it's not a sanctioned bout.

Are you saying unless you're an athlete who joins sports competitions and has an official record, you're not a fighter, even if you get in real street fights all the time, because there are no rules and officially declared winners? That's bizarre thinking...

[PalmStriker]

That's fine then. Enjoy the movie.


Yes he deserves appreciation for getting people started in martial arts just like Sylvester Stallone deserves appreciation for getting people into boxing. That has nothing to do with one's fighting ability.



Probably don't feed the bulldog. Either someone's a fighter and there is credible evidence of that or they're not a fighter. Bruce wasn't a fighter. There are people looking at the movie going "ooh he's such a good fighter and his pak sau is so awesome." Bollocks. He wasn't a fighter, he was an actor. It's a Bruce Lee circle jerk.

Yer a circlejerker, a real baconbeater. Call Bruce Lee's backfist whatever you want, the guy was tough, and yer all fluff.

[Bacon]

What is a fight record? How do you get a fight record? Do you mean an official record in competition? That's sport record, not fighting. How could there be an official record for street fighting? Every time you scrap with some hooligan it's not a sanctioned bout.

Well there's Vale Tudo, no holds barred fighting, MMA. And FYI the first two are essentially the same and existed long before Bruce was around. Even sport fighting with minimal rules (like MMA) > "street fighting." Sport fighting such as boxing or full contact karate like Shotokan are good tests of skill against trained resistan opponents and still > "street fighting."

Are you saying unless you're an athlete who joins sports competitions and has an official record, you're not a fighter, even if you get in real street fights all the time, because there are no rules and officially declared winners? That's bizarre thinking...

I'm saying if you fought Chuck Liddell in or out of the ring the results would be the same. Teh d34dly eye gouges and groin strikes won't save you against someone who has been fighting high class trained fighters.

[Bacon]

Yer a circlejerker, a real baconbeater. Call Bruce Lee's backfist whatever you want, the guy was tough, and yer all fluff.

Really. Name me one person of repute he fought and beat. I'll wait. Go on.

[PalmStriker]

People who were trying to kill him.

[Bacon]

Still waiting...

[LFJ]

Well there's Vale Tudo, no holds barred fighting, MMA. And FYI the first two are essentially the same and existed long before Bruce was around. Even sport fighting with minimal rules (like MMA) > "street fighting." Sport fighting such as boxing or full contact karate like Shotokan are good tests of skill against trained resistan opponents and still > "street fighting."

It's bizarre to even place these in the same equation and say one is greater than the other. Sport is something you join. Street fighting is something that happens. You're basically saying agreeing to fight in a protected environment is greater than getting caught in a potentially deadly scrap where concealed weapons may be involved.

But what does this have to do with not being a fighter even if you actually fight, just because you don't get an official record on the street?

I'm saying if you fought Chuck Liddell in or out of the ring the results would be the same. Teh d34dly eye gouges and groin strikes won't save you against someone who has been fighting high class trained fighters.

This doesn't answer my question. I was questioning your statement that you need a official record in order to be considered a fighter, even if you actually fight on the street all the time.

Following your logic, if Chuck Liddell doesn't fight in the ring and get an official record for himself, he's not a fighter, even though his fighting results would be the same in or out of the ring. If he only fights on the street and doesn't do it in the ring, he's not a fighter.

Doesn't this read as stupid as it feels to type?

[LFJ]

Teh d34dly eye gouges and groin strikes won't save you against someone who has been fighting high class trained fighters.

BTW, I think you may be illusioned by sport fighting. It's not just eye gouges, groin strikes, small joint manipulation, etc. they'd have to worry about. Even without all that, many things these "high class trained fighters" train to do in the cage would simply get them killed on the street because they're thinking in terms of fair competition in a relatively safe environment with time limits and everything.

[mun hung]

90% of the people who have posted on this thread recognize that Bruce Lee definitely had fighting skills. But of course, there's always some fantasy football guys out there who think it's cool to discredit one of the hardest working, most influential martial artists of our time because he's lacking any documented "official" fights with well known "sport" fighters. But the only real thing lacking here is respect for a fellow martial artist who is dead. One who popularized our style. There is no honor in that. Discrediting a great person to make oneself sound smarter....not in this case.

Yip Man didn't have an official fighting record either. Could you even dare to say that he wasn't a good fighter?

[Wayfaring]

Still waiting...

It was a different time. There was no popular UFC or Pride then. There was a very small kickboxing pro circuit - Bill Wallace and Benny Urquidez fought on that. And boxing.

Bruce was an actor. With an obsession with fighting. His skills were vouched for by Bill Wallace who did have a fight record and Chuck Norris, who was winning all the point tournaments around. But he was not a pro fighter.

If he lived, maybe we'd have seen more. Dan Inosanto went on to do much more work in the modern MMA type training. Bruce is called the pioneer of MMA by many of the modern MMA fighters. His studies, writing and demos kind of laid the foundation for all that.

As far as tired sport vs. street arguments, yes a pro MMA fighter can lose a street fight. Tito Ortiz got beat up outside a club in a known incident by a person who wasn't a pro fighter, and Urijah Faber barely made it out of Thailand alive last year after some of his antics. But thinking they can't handle some schmo who practices deadly eye gouges on compliant partners is completely delusional.

[thedreamer7]

GSP says he is a martial artist, rather than a fighter, too. SFW?



I think the consensus was closer to something like "whether or not he was a fighter with a record was irrelevant".

Sounds like you got the finger, too. Most armchair critics deserve it.

Agree. Please don't anyone say GSP is not a real fighter because he only fights in the ring

[thedreamer7]

As far as tired sport vs. street arguments, yes a pro MMA fighter can lose a street fight. Tito Ortiz got beat up outside a club in a known incident by a person who wasn't a pro fighter, and Urijah Faber barely made it out of Thailand alive last year after some of his antics. But thinking they can't handle some schmo who practices deadly eye gouges on compliant partners is completely delusional.

Correct anyone can lose a fight. However the better fighters are normally the guys who fight the most and train the hardest. Bruce Lee definitely trained hard! Correct Wing Chun to the someone's opinion is not what counts here.