What is your wing chun lineage?

[HmorenoM]

Jiu Wan - Francis Fong - Steven Broughman - Alejandro Arocha - Me

[Bacon]

Currently: Training under my old si-dai Jeff Webb (Ip Man-Leung Ting and Keith Kermspecht, now independent) 2007 to present.

Does he still call you sihing?

[kung fu fighter]

My father was my sifu, my older brothers also took part in my training. He told me his system came from the area around Canton and was fathered by a man named Hung. He called it Hung Fa Wing Chun. My father taught many, many Chinese men this system, but not all to the same level. Most required only a certain amount of training to be able to do their jobs.

is this the same system that william cheung does as traditional wing chun, and Garrett Gee does as Hung Fa Yi wing chun?

[JPinAZ]

is this the same system that william cheung does as traditional wing chun, and Garrett Gee does as Hung Fa Yi wing chun?

Not this again.
This subject has been gone over time and again on here already and I'm pretty sure both sides agree: Hung Fa Yi and TWC are not the same system and both stand on their own. Even a quick look at their SNT clips will show this to be the case.
And yes, while it appears that they are closer cousins and share more similarities than if compared to most of the other YM and non-YM lineages (I mean, they are ALL WC and will have similarities to varying degrees), they are still 2 separate systems.

Regardless, IMO, to really answer this, one would have to have some direct experience in at least 2 of the three (which I'm assuming LCP does not, but I could be wrong). But I'm interested in seeing what he has to say!

[Paul T England]

Very interesting thread to see who is out there and how the wing chun family maps together.

Yip Man-Yip Chun-Sam Kwok-Trevor Jefferson -Me since 1985

Apart from countless hours with mt sifu, sigung and dai sigung, I have also been fortunate to share many experiences with my friends and seniors in the WSL Family, David Peterson, Cliff Au Yeung, Alan Gibson, Ged Kenerk et al. I have also been fortunate to spend many days learning from Lun Kai Sifu in Foshan and seminars and privates with many different lineages and sifu.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Grumblegeezer]

Does he still call you sihing?

Actually he does sometimes, privately at least. In front of his students I refer to him as Master Jeff (because he has earned that rank) and similarly, in front of his students he refers to me as "your si-pak" or just "Sifu Steve" if several sifus are present (using the term "sifu" in it's meaning as an instructor or "one with proficiency", not as your personal "teacher-father").

Seriously, you can use whatever terms you like, but your attitude and actions will either show respect ...or not. And I respect this guy.

[Wayfaring]

Regardless, IMO, to really answer this, one would have to have some direct experience in at least 2 of the three (which I'm assuming LCP does not, but I could be wrong). But I'm interested in seeing what he has to say!

I thought we asked him about this in the past and his answer was it was a family kung fu art and from his perspective not connected at all to HFY or TWC.

[JPinAZ]

I thought we asked him about this in the past and his answer was it was a family kung fu art and from his perspective not connected at all to HFY or TWC.

Yes, that was my understanding too! I just didn't want to speak for him

[kung fu fighter]

Not this again.
This subject has been gone over time and again on here already and I'm pretty sure both sides agree: Hung Fa Yi and TWC are not the same system and both stand on their own. Even a quick look at their SNT clips will show this to be the case.
And yes, while it appears that they are closer cousins and share more similarities than if compared to most of the other YM and non-YM lineages (I mean, they are ALL WC and will have similarities to varying degrees), they are still 2 separate systems.

Regardless, IMO, to really answer this, one would have to have some direct experience in at least 2 of the three (which I'm assuming LCP does not, but I could be wrong). But I'm interested in seeing what he has to say!

I thought we asked him about this in the past and his answer was it was a family kung fu art and from his perspective not connected at all to HFY or TWC.

Correct me if i am wrong fellas, but isn't hung Fa yi decended from Hung Gun Biu?
Lee Chiang Po says his sytem decends from Hung Gun, what are the chances this is the same person?

The lineage of which my own wing chun comes from is called Hung Fa, and is said to be descended from Hung Gun. My dad always just called it Hung Fa Wing Chun. I had no idea that there were so many different lineages of Wing Chun in the world until I found this forum while looking at the Kung Fu magazine site some time back. I thought that mine was of the only lineage.

If I remember correctly, My dad was born in 1880. He was old when I came along. In 1965 he died from diabetes at 85 years old. He was a Boxer in 1900 and barely missed the headsman. Later he fled the Canton area and went to Hong Kong in 49 to escape the Communists. From there he came to the states. He told me that he learned Hung Fa from ex-soldiers. They were working members of a tong gang. The stuff I related might or might not have been true, but it does make sense to me at least. These things he told me. Now I am old. Or getting old.

Doesn't Hung Fa Yi also claim it was a military art? hmmm

I am sorry I have not been back. Sometimes this forum sees me coming and won't let me in.

Now, what I have been trying to do is keep from making statements of fact. I don't have the facts. Too much myth to really know. What I have said is that what it was called by my dad was Hung Fa. He also called it Hung fa wing chun. He never really called it Hung Fa Yi. I have heard it called by other names as well. I know that he was born in 1880. Some time after 1890 he started learning what he called Hung Fa wing chun. He learned it from ex military men. Soldiers of the Imperial Army. Later in his life he learned from other men when he joined with a secret society. A tong gang is you will. He did not come to the states until 1950. He was an old man. He never did tell me anything concerning lineage or so forth. So I have no idea. Now, I know that what he was teaching me was at least that old. I am guessing that it goes way back more than that. When we see family trees with the last person being enhereter I have to wonder. I was not told this in so many words, but it was indicated that there were hundreds if not thousands of people running around China that were Wing chun boxers.
When I said that it looks the same to me it is because it looks the same to me. Wing chun is built on concepts and basic principals. You can watch 5 people that are trained by different sifu and you will see differences in their style. However, in most all cases you are going to see that they do adhere to these principals even if it looks a bit different. When you abandon these principals you are not doing wing chun in my opinion. Also, if you are the last living person of a single lineage then you can enheret. But you can not enheret the entire system as such.
I have watched Bill Cheung do wing chun and must say that I do my wing chun pretty much like he does. I am sure by Victors written article that I felt familiar with every concept of what he wrote. If my wing chun was different I would have immediately noticed differences. As for the HFY of Garret Gee, I have no idea as I have never seen him do much except on a few short video clips. It looked exactly like what Bill Cheung does.
I do not believe the story of Ng Mui or Yimm Wing Chun. It would make the lineage far too narrow to have had hundreds if not thousands of followers in China. Look at the number of lineages today. It could not account for only a half dozen generations.
I don't think I have ever made a posting on the 101 forum spoken of earlier. I am not a member and would not be able to. I have only been there a couple of times and gave up trying to navigate that forum. That was something posted on this forum.

Chiang

Perhaps you guys were not reading the same posts that i did lol

[JPinAZ]

Correct me if i am wrong fellas, but isn't hung Fa yi decended from Hung Gun Biu?
Lee Chiang Po says his sytem decends from Hung Gun, what are the chances this is the same person?

I was excited when LCP originally came here and told this story. And, if the stories his father was told were correct, then yes, it very well could be the same Hung Gun (Biu) and be from the same system he taught (or a version of it). But to really know for sure, one would need first hand experience of both systems (and not second hand stories).

Until then, hopefully Lee Chiang can take a look at one of the HFY SNT forms on youtube and let us know if it's the same or similar to what he was taught? (lee, if you are interested and need help finding a clip, let me know and I can post up a link)

Perhaps you guys were not reading the same posts that i did lol

No need to make assumptions. I have read what you quoted when LCP posted them.

If you re-read in that last quote, he also said "Now, what I have been trying to do is keep from making statements of fact. I don't have the facts. Too much myth to really know." I would agree.

Being a HFY practitioner for over 10 years, I think LCP's stories are very interesting and I would like to know more about what he's learned and maybe meet up with him some day if I have a chance. But I don't think it's fair for anyone to start drawing any conclusions about what is what simply based on myths - and he seems to feel the same apparently.

But, my main reason for originally posting is to draw the the distinction between HFY & TWC and how they are not the same system. HFY and TWC members have said several time they are not the same and that's more than good enough for me. Hopefully this is good enough for you.

Just curious what your interest is in this or why you assume they are all the same, if none of the actual parties of the systems even feel this way with any large degree of certainty?

[kung fu fighter]

Just curious what your interest is in this or why you assume they are all the same, if none of the actual parties of the systems even feel this way with any large degree of certainty?

My suspician is that GM William Cheung Learnt Hung Fa wing chun in secreacy and was not allowed to divulge from whom he learnt it from for whatever reason. He then had no choice but to claim he learnt it from ip man, after Ip's death. But it's quite possible that he reveild the true source to only one or two of his most trusted deciples, which would explain why Rich Spain renamed TWC as Hung Suen wing chun. I Believe GM Garrett Gee also learnt this same system and added to it's curriculam over the years. just my opinion

In regards to why none of the actual parties of these systems would admit to it, it's probably because they are afraid of political issues with one another lol

[Paddington]

Hell, why not. I include just those that are alive in this list.

Ip Chun>*not telling*>me

[Graham H]

*not telling*

Classic!

[Paddington]

Classic!

I thought I would get a smile.

Not many certified by Ip Chun, it is easy to work out!

EDIT: NO, it is not Sam Kwok. He is not certified!

[Graham H]

I'm not certified by Ip Chun either