What is your wing chun lineage?

[Paddington]

I'm not certified by Ip Chun either

But yet so many are certifiable instead.


jk ofc

[JPinAZ]

My "suspician" is.. blah blah blah....just my opinion

Ahh, so now we have it.

While you obviously have nothing better to do then guess and theorize about people you've never met, regarding systems you oviously have no experience in, with no proof to any of it - I'm not going to waste any more time on this type of garbage BS nonsense.

Later

[kung fu fighter]

Ahh, so now we have it.

While you obviously have nothing better to do then guess and theorize about people you've never met, regarding systems you oviously have no experience in, with no proof to any of it - I'm not going to waste any more time on this type of garbage BS nonsense.

Later

What's the matter, you have absolutely nothing to debate the valid points i brought up , instead of re-arranging my words and throwing a temper tantrum lol. that just proves my point! And who is theorizing now by saying i have no experience in any of these systems, how would you know? I have trained and have a rank in TWC and Have compared what i've learnt to what's written in Garrett Gee's book "mastering kung fu. It's almost identically the same system! except for a few concepts which Garrett added later from Hoffman's weng chun through Benny Meng, claiming it to be part of Hung Fa Yi all along. which is why Hoffman stopped teaching Benny.

[Eric_H]

What's the matter, you have absolutely nothing to debate the valid points i brought up , instead of re-arranging my words and throwing a temper tantrum lol. that just proves my point! And who is theorizing now by saying i have no experience in any of these systems, how would you know? I have trained and have a rank in TWC and Have compared what i've learnt to what's written in Garrett Gee's book "mastering kung fu. It's almost identically the same system! except for a few concepts which Garrett added later from Hoffman's weng chun through Benny Meng, claiming it to be part of Hung Fa Yi all along. which is why Hoffman stopped teaching Benny.

I'll tell you clearly, as I don't have much a dog in this fight outside of being GM Gee's student and having been through the "Benny Era."

Benny was learning Hung Fa Yi, he then went and learned some Chi Sim, he started mixing the stuff together in a 9-level curriculum he was teaching. He kept trying to push that TKD/Krav Maga and all that other junk he learned was "Fau Kiu" (level 1-3) the chi sim stuff was "San Kiu" (level 4-6) and Hung Fa Yi was Weng Ku (level 7-9). This was a *******ization of Hung Fa Yi's Saam Mo Kiu philosophy along with Benny's business sense (selling belts).

Hoffman found out about it, and rightly so got ****ed. Told Benny he needed to pay up if he was gonna teach his stuff, and they had a falling out. Benny continued to teach the same material, but took off all the chi sim names and made them names like single hand reaction drill 1,2,3 etc.

I can see where Hoffman would think that Benny was feeding info cause both Hoffman and GM Gee were both teaching "Kiu Sao" and "Heaven Human Earth" even if they were vastly different in understanding of the same terms. To tell you truthfully, GM Gee knows about 40 styles of Kung Fu from his dad, GM Peter Kim Ho Chu. He doesn't need anyone else's info at this point in his life.

Chi Sim Kiu sao isn't like Hung Fa Yi Kiu Sao which isn't like Hung Gar Kiu Sao. They just use some of the same terms.

As for TWC and Hung Fa Yi, it takes first hand experience with both to see the difference. It's very easy to sort out in a live setting. As JPinAZ noted, the guys that do TWC and have met up with HFY guys see the difference, there are even a few on this forum for you to ask. Personally, I've seen GM Cheung's tapes, etc. For my money, it's not the same system, though we do look a lot more alike in some ways than other WC.

I don't know any TWC guys in the SF bay area, but am game to meet up and compare notes if you're around here.

Best,

[JPinAZ]

Hey Eric,

Master Redmond has moved to the SoCal area, maybe we can plan a WC meet-up at some point since he's not that far away? That is, if he's willing of course
(Hey Phil, shoot me a PM)

[kung fu fighter]

I'll tell you clearly, as I don't have much a dog in this fight outside of being GM Gee's student and having been through the "Benny Era."

Benny was learning Hung Fa Yi, he then went and learned some Chi Sim, he started mixing the stuff together in a 9-level curriculum he was teaching. He kept trying to push that TKD/Krav Maga and all that other junk he learned was "Fau Kiu" (level 1-3) the chi sim stuff was "San Kiu" (level 4-6) and Hung Fa Yi was Weng Ku (level 7-9). This was a *******ization of Hung Fa Yi's Saam Mo Kiu philosophy along with Benny's business sense (selling belts).

Hoffman found out about it, and rightly so got ****ed. Told Benny he needed to pay up if he was gonna teach his stuff, and they had a falling out. Benny continued to teach the same material, but took off all the chi sim names and made them names like single hand reaction drill 1,2,3 etc.

I can see where Hoffman would think that Benny was feeding info cause both Hoffman and GM Gee were both teaching "Kiu Sao" and "Heaven Human Earth" even if they were vastly different in understanding of the same terms. To tell you truthfully, GM Gee knows about 40 styles of Kung Fu from his dad, GM Peter Kim Ho Chu. He doesn't need anyone else's info at this point in his life.

Chi Sim Kiu sao isn't like Hung Fa Yi Kiu Sao which isn't like Hung Gar Kiu Sao. They just use some of the same terms.

As for TWC and Hung Fa Yi, it takes first hand experience with both to see the difference. It's very easy to sort out in a live setting. As JPinAZ noted, the guys that do TWC and have met up with HFY guys see the difference, there are even a few on this forum for you to ask. Personally, I've seen GM Cheung's tapes, etc. For my money, it's not the same system, though we do look a lot more alike in some ways than other WC.

I don't know any TWC guys in the SF bay area, but am game to meet up and compare notes if you're around here.

Best,

Hey Eric,

Thank you for your post and clarification, everything you said seems very sincere and genuine, which i find productive to my origional post, instead of being attacked.

Can you elaborate on some of the details, similarities and differences when comparing Hung Fa Yi and TWC?

If I am ever in the SF bay area i will definately like to meet up and compare notes.

[Eric_H]

Hey Eric,

Thank you for your post and clarification, everything you said seems very sincere and genuine, which i find productive to my origional post, instead of being attacked.

Can you elaborate on some of the details, similarities and differences when comparing Hung Fa Yi and TWC?

If I am ever in the SF bay area i will definately like to meet up and compare notes.

No worries man, tempers flare on the internet... it's kind of what it's made for.

As i said earlier, I've not done TWC, so my observations are from a brief intro by Dale Vits, who was working on learning HFY at the time and from videos, etc, so take it with a grain of salt.

I'm just going to pick a few things that popped out at me right away:

Body mechanics - Our stances are pretty different even though they look close. The footwork for getting there (Leung Yi Ma vs Side Neutral stance switching for example) is not even close. We tend to use a lot more knee language than i see in TWC.
Strategy - We don't go for blindside, which seems to be a really big deal in TWC.
Centerline - Since it's the driving theory of WC, this one is a biggie. In TWC, you have center and central line (which seems to be a shared center between 2 points). In Hung Fa Yi we have Self Center (which is both line and gravity), Kiu Sao Centerline (which is connecting A point to B point) and Gee Ng Kiu center line (how to balance energy on the bridge). For us, if you don't connect all 3, you don't have a true center yet.


That last one is the most important... if your way of setting up and using the driving theory of WC (centerline) isn't the same, you're going to be operating pretty different. That goes for comparing any 2 WC styles, really.

[JPinAZ]

What's the matter, you have absolutely nothing to debate the valid points i brought up , instead of re-arranging my words and throwing a temper tantrum lol. that just proves my point! And who is theorizing now by saying i have no experience in any of these systems, how would you know? I have trained and have a rank in TWC and Have compared what i've learnt to what's written in Garrett Gee's book "mastering kung fu. It's almost identically the same system! except for a few concepts which Garrett added later from Hoffman's weng chun through Benny Meng, claiming it to be part of Hung Fa Yi all along. which is why Hoffman stopped teaching Benny.

This is exactly why I didn't want to discuss with you. IMO, none of what you said is valid because it's not based on experience - just guesses - which is fine if the intent is to genuinely learn and not accuse as you are doing above. And I have no emotion in this except maybe annoyance, nor did anyone 'attack' you (nice one BTW). Again, all nonsense, as well as showing a lack of maturity and somewhat thin skin - again, my opinion of course

If I came off as short with you, let me be clear on why I didn't want to have this discussion again:

First, this has all been hashed out numerous times on this forum and others. If your real intent was to learn, a little time spent searching would have shown you this. But I guess some people just find it easier to sling mud around and see what sticks sticks...

Next, all your assumptions & accusations are based on what? Some unknown amount of training in one art (could be a lot or a little FAIK) , reading an introduction book on another, and also somehow know enough of Chi Sim to draw conclusions about people you have most likely never met before.
It's clear you didn't know what you were talking about in any of it - as Eric was able to show rather easily. And I can say this with certainty because I was there next to him through all of it. Yet you felt you knew enough about 3 arts (HFY, TWC & Chi Sim) to speculate that one or both of these highly-respected men with close-to 100 years WC experience between them are essentially theifs and/or liars. Couldn't this be viewed as 'attacks' as you like to put it? Hopefully you are see my point.

Now, if you simply had a question about HFY, it's lineage or it's members without the gossip and accusations, I would have had no problem discussing with you. But your approach and accusations are what put me off. Eric has more patience than me in this regard

Just for conversations sake and since you brought it up, how long did you train TWC and under who? What 'rank' do you have? (And it could be a high rank for all I know, but a first level white belt/sash can also be considered a 'rank')
Do you have any experience in Chi Sim Kiu Sau methods?
And just for fun, what is your name?
I ask because it's easy to claim experience in something you might not really have and sling mud on the interent behind an alias - plus, I just like to know who it is I'm talking to and so I don't just assmue you to be a troll

Jonathan (JP)