Training With an Injury.

[Scott R. Brown]

Don't ice for more than 15-20 minutes at a time, though.

More than 20 minutes at once is pro-inflammatory which is the opposite of what you want.

Yeah I forgot to mention that, thanks for including that! Its actually 15-25 mins, so I always say 20 mins.

Most guys tend to sit on their arse and only work out like crazy now and then. For those that work hard all the time, they seem to be more prone to get silly with it.
I am a lazy man. Ugly and lazy. I would get into a hard fight and by the next day feel like I was frozen in my joints. I got smart and did what Bruce did, and I bought myself a sack full of Tinse Units. They are small little boxes full of batteries, and they have a wire or actually 2 wires with a sticky pad on each one. I stick one on either side of the muscles that were spasming and turn it on. It shocks a little, but it makes these muscles relax and stop spasming. Quick fix if it is only spastic muscles. Worth the money and time looking for one. They can be had at most medical supply places and anyone can buy one.
Bruce Lee used to have one in each pocket. He hooked them to his lats, pecs, six pack, or even his glutts. He stood there jumping all over. It exercised target muscles that he wanted to enhance and he could go about his business day and not have to do the exercises otherwise.

That's TENS, Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation

[IronFist]

Aren't TENS useless except on comatose patients or something to prevent atrophy?

I know they're sold as fitness products but I thought that was just a scam.

[Oso]

...and don't forget to consult the meridian charts...don't want to ice over top of the chi flow...

[Scott R. Brown]

Aren't TENS useless except on comatose patients or something to prevent atrophy?

I know they're sold as fitness products but I thought that was just a scam.

We usually used them for pain management. They were very prevalent some 25-30 years ago, but they have fallen out of favor. Medicine is frought with fads too.

[kwaichang]

It sounds as if you have a structural problem around L4, L5 sacrum and SI joints . They are in the Low back Pelvic area , and it is common in those that do construction landscaping etc, which makes it difficult to perform good mechanics when lifting or moving things. So see some one who can correct the lumbar and SI joints most likely a Posterior Innominate Rotation and L5 Sacral torsion and counter rotation at L5 and opposite Counter rotation at L4. After the structure is Corrected stabilize the core , do not do sit ups. Slowly progress to High Level Core Stabilization exercises, Ice the LB after all w/o and be careful for a while it comes back real easy. KC

[Kellen Bassette]

It sounds as if you have a structural problem around L4, L5 sacrum and SI joints . They are in the Low back Pelvic area , and it is common in those that do construction landscaping etc, which makes it difficult to perform good mechanics when lifting or moving things. So see some one who can correct the lumbar and SI joints most likely a Posterior Innominate Rotation and L5 Sacral torsion and counter rotation at L5 and opposite Counter rotation at L4. After the structure is Corrected stabilize the core , do not do sit ups. Slowly progress to High Level Core Stabilization exercises, Ice the LB after all w/o and be careful for a while it comes back real easy. KC

Certainly possible...It's about 6 weeks since I got hurt now and I have gotten a lot better. I'm back to training, but just Muay Thai. I still don't trust myself to do spins or crescent kicks yet...those are the movements that set it off...I can do Teep and roundhouse all day, can even work the clinch and just get a bit sore, but one lotus kick would put me right back in pain...I'm just going to wait it out until there's no pain from those type of movements.

[bawang]

if it is spinal injury the cheapest rehab method is lots and lots of pull ups. it brings nutrients into your spinal discs.

[taai gihk yahn]

It sounds as if you have a structural problem around L4, L5 sacrum and SI joints . They are in the Low back Pelvic area , and it is common in those that do construction landscaping etc, which makes it difficult to perform good mechanics when lifting or moving things. So see some one who can correct the lumbar and SI joints most likely a Posterior Innominate Rotation and L5 Sacral torsion and counter rotation at L5 and opposite Counter rotation at L4. After the structure is Corrected stabilize the core , do not do sit ups. Slowly progress to High Level Core Stabilization exercises, Ice the LB after all w/o and be careful for a while it comes back real easy. KC

first off, you have no way of knowing this is the case without having examined him; even though you are describing Mitchell's Common Compensatory Pattern, which some sources cite as being the case ~85% of the time (although this is anecdotal, not statistical), you don't know if this is the case with him; to suggest that this is his profile without having examined him is not only irresponsible, it's unethical; and as a PT, you should know better than this;

second of all, if you want to talk treatment on someone who does present with manipulable dysfunction, in the case of a PRI, honestly, who gives a crap: it's an exaggeration of a normal movement along its physiological axis; most of the time it's not primary, or even contributory; and when you correct the underlying issue(s) it usually corrects on its own; and guess what - most asymptomatic people are walking around with a u/l PRI (usually Lt.) anyway; unfortunately, it's a lesion that gets corrected frequently because it's relatively easy to diagnose and "correct"; btut it's a red herring, and most of the time should be ignored; as far as the sacral torsion, if it's a LOL / ROR, same thing - who cares - it's typical, it occurs in gait, and most people are asymmetrical when asymptomatic;
what you really care about in the pelvis are unilateral sacral extensions (rare), iliac upslips (rare), backwards sacral torsions (fairly common) and pubic shears (epidemic); the last two should be corrected by any means available, but you also have to balance pelvic floor, abdominal visceral mass, respiratory diaphragm and probably have a good look at someone's feet, crural interosseous membranes and hip joints as well, instead of stomping on PRIs, FST's and L5/S1(unless you have a true compression of L5 on S1, then you need to decompress that - but correction FRS/ERS's at that level isn't usually a priority)

as far as sit-ups, again, if your goal is to engage transversus, obliques and multifidi, sit-ups in a controlled manner can be useful, it just depends; to say one should / should not do sit-ups without looking at each person individually makes no sense;

if it is spinal injury the cheapest rehab method is lots and lots of pull ups. it brings nutrients into your spinal discs.

no it doesn't - at least no more than any other activity that decreases vertebral loading; and again, when you say "spinal injury", that can mean anything from bone, to ligament, to disc, to nerve, to muscle, each of which require seperate treatment approaches depending on the nature of the pathology;
as far as pull-ups, many people do them wrong, by engaging hip flexors to help get themselves over the top of the bar; in a lot of cases, chroniclly facilitated hip flexors can create significant low back and discal dysfunction; so it's possible that someone could do pull-ups and create more problems than they solve

again, and I say this all the time, IT DEPENDS on the individual, their clinical presentation, etc., and to make either general statements or comment on someone who you haven't examined is irresponsible and unethical;

why is this so hard for people to understand?

[Scott R. Brown]

first off, you have no way of knowing this is the case without having examined him; even though you are describing Mitchell's Common Compensatory Pattern, which some sources cite as being the case ~85% of the time (although this is anecdotal, not statistical), you don't know if this is the case with him; to suggest that this is his profile without having examined him is not only irresponsible, it's unethical; and as a PT, you should know better than this;

second of all, if you want to talk treatment on someone who does present with manipulable dysfunction, in the case of a PRI, honestly, who gives a crap: it's an exaggeration of a normal movement along its physiological axis; most of the time it's not primary, or even contributory; and when you correct the underlying issue(s) it usually corrects on its own; and guess what - most asymptomatic people are walking around with a u/l PRI (usually Lt.) anyway; unfortunately, it's a lesion that gets corrected frequently because it's relatively easy to diagnose and "correct"; btut it's a red herring, and most of the time should be ignored; as far as the sacral torsion, if it's a LOL / ROR, same thing - who cares - it's typical, it occurs in gait, and most people are asymmetrical when asymptomatic;
what you really care about in the pelvis are unilateral sacral extensions (rare), iliac upslips (rare), backwards sacral torsions (fairly common) and pubic shears (epidemic); the last two should be corrected by any means available, but you also have to balance pelvic floor, abdominal visceral mass, respiratory diaphragm and probably have a good look at someone's feet, crural interosseous membranes and hip joints as well, instead of stomping on PRIs, FST's and L5/S1(unless you have a true compression of L5 on S1, then you need to decompress that - but correction FRS/ERS's at that level isn't usually a priority)

as far as sit-ups, again, if your goal is to engage transversus, obliques and multifidi, sit-ups in a controlled manner can be useful, it just depends; to say one should / should not do sit-ups without looking at each person individually makes no sense;


no it doesn't - at least no more than any other activity that decreases vertebral loading; and again, when you say "spinal injury", that can mean anything from bone, to ligament, to disc, to nerve, to muscle, each of which require seperate treatment approaches depending on the nature of the pathology;
as far as pull-ups, many people do them wrong, by engaging hip flexors to help get themselves over the top of the bar; in a lot of cases, chroniclly facilitated hip flexors can create significant low back and discal dysfunction; so it's possible that someone could do pull-ups and create more problems than they solve

again, and I say this all the time, IT DEPENDS on the individual, their clinical presentation, etc., and to make either general statements or comment on someone who you haven't examined is irresponsible and unethical;

YEAH! I was just about to say the same thing!

why is this so hard for people to understand?

Because..... That's why!!!!

[bawang]

no it doesn't - at least no more than any other activity that decreases vertebral loading; and again, when you say "spinal injury", that can mean anything from bone, to ligament, to disc, to nerve, to muscle, each of which require seperate treatment approaches depending on the nature of the pathology;
as far as pull-ups, many people do them wrong, by engaging hip flexors to help get themselves over the top of the bar; in a lot of cases, chroniclly facilitated hip flexors can create significant low back and discal dysfunction; so it's possible that someone could do pull-ups and create more problems than they solve

again, and I say this all the time, IT DEPENDS on the individual, their clinical presentation, etc., and to make either general statements or comment on someone who you haven't examined is irresponsible and unethical;

why is this so hard for people to understand?

its called traction. they do it in rehab all the time. it rehydrates spinal discs. and since kellen said hes dirt poor and cant afford a doctor, i gave him an advice he can actually follow through.

[IronFist]

if it is spinal injury the cheapest rehab method is lots and lots of pull ups. it brings nutrients into your spinal discs.

o rly?

message too short

[taai gihk yahn]

its called traction. they do it in rehab all the time. it rehydrates spinal discs. and since kellen said hes dirt poor and cant afford a doctor, i gave him an advice he can actually follow through.

that's debateable as to a) if that even happens; and b) whether it does anything at all; the literature is rather equivocal regarding the effectiveness and to date I am not familiar with any study that demonstrates that the theory of an osmotic gradient is actually really what happens

with traction, what's more likely happening therapeuticaly is a combination of generalized muscle spasm inhibition via sustained tension and possibly taking pressure off spinal nerves if it actually gets to the level of specificity required for that; again, the available research was rated at "C" by Corchraine (I believe), meaning no discernable effect; and that's when gravity is eliminated and there are no active muscle contractions going on, such as would be the case with pull-ups; and again, if he does them wrong, he can actualy exacerbate his issues;

my point, as always, is that dispensing advice of any kind in a forum in regards to dealing with symptoms, is a risky business...

[kwaichang]

I have treated these sort of injuries for 18 yearsand have been a personal trainer for 8 years prior to that , That said , I have seen more SI dysfunctions assoc with Lumbar Symptoms than I care to shake a stick at. I also said get it checked out. So lets let him do that and see what they find. Many therapists treat differently and 4 therapists looking at the same person can see 4 different problems. I donrt know how many LB problems you have seen but I treat them daily usually 5-6 of 10. They all get better . Yes all. Let us know man , FYI correct the structure and the Mm will correct as well. BTW a SI dysfunction sited in most studies are not using athletes and def not MA as a criteria of the outcomes. KC

[taai gihk yahn]

I have treated these sort of injuries for 18 years

me too

and have been a personal trainer for 8 years prior to that

so for 8 years you caused the problems that you have been trying to atone for the last 18...

, That said , I have seen more SI dysfunctions assoc with Lumbar Symptoms than I care to shake a stick at.

me too; I also have seen most lumbar and SIJ issues have their origin due to problems elsewhere (feet, hips, pelvic floor, respiratory diaphragm, visceral stuff, cranial stuff);

I also said get it checked out. So lets let him do that and see what they find.

that would be the only reasonable suggestion to make, instead of hitting him with jargon that he won't understand and may not be relevant to him;

Many therapists treat differently and 4 therapists looking at the same person can see 4 different problems.

yes; and 3 out of the 4 usually don't know WTF they are actually looking at

I donrt know how many LB problems you have seen but I treat them daily usually 5-6 of 10.

I don't know exactly how many: I treated ~30 people / week for 9 years (1 hour per client, so I was able to really get into detail w each person); when I started to focus on pediatrics more, that number went down to half for a few more years, then less the last several, but in the last year I've started working with ortho pop again; it's still a lot, to the point where I've noticed the things I stated in my previous post, many of which were brought to my attention by Fred Mitchell Jr., DO, so I tend to give him a bit more credence than I might someone else...

They all get better . Yes all.

sure, or course they did; every single pt. w LBP you've ever treated has gotten better;

Let us know man , FYI correct the structure and the Mm will correct as well.

muscle are part of structure, last time I checked...

BTW a SI dysfunction sited in most studies are not using athletes and def not MA as a criteria of the outcomes. KC

which studies? and how do you know that the patient cohorts didn't contain athletes or martial artists?

[kwaichang]

Ok , I think we both want the best for the injured, But, yes all my LB pts have improved with decreased pain and improved mobility. Corley and Kelsey are ex based PT's in Texas and I m well versed in Ortho /SI problems, CST is an awesom Modality but so is MFR and METherapy, and while the feet and orthotics can have a bearing here the mechanism of injury and the reported pain Co's tell me otherwise, I have seen this too many times, also how many studies utilize high level athletes and MA'sin their studies , very few , Most of the outcome studies use people 40-60 years of age half Female half male to get the broad base pt spectrum as those are the paying clients in Out Pt PT clinics. Still TheVicera typically are the result of the problem not the causation from my experience. OK Your turn KC