Yes
No
(. Y .)
Should we just adapt Kung Fu to the ring?
For example, just work off of a San Da base and then gradually introduce traditional techniques over time.
I don't think it'd make Kung Fu any less effective and it's not like we're out defending our honor in bloody street fights. IDK, does it make sense to adapt to modern competition?
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Modern competition can have as limited rules as you want, even no rules.
The techniques used in Sanda ARE traditional, though they MAY not ALL be from TCMA in how they are applied.
I don't see any reason why ANY kung fu systems will not work in the ring as long as the person trained for it.
You won't find a much better "testing ground" for your TCMA than in the ring VS a fighter that has trained as much as you, wants to beat you as much as you want to be him.
So why not?
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
羅王宗
There is no need to adapt the art. You simply need to adapt the game to test the art. Change the rules. But when I say change the rules, I don't mean to allow 'more deadly' technique. I mean to Change the prerequisites for winning.
I.e If you did it as a scenario, alternating attackers and defenders. Like a game of tennis has alternating servers. This is in no way less realistic and would dramatically change the tactics used during each play.
In the defenders round he doesn't have to score any points (but can counter attack if he wants, it just won't score him any points), only stop the attacker from scoring. I think you would see a lot more Kung fu 'esque footwork and guarding being employed. You can only score during an attacking round, however if you KO the opponent during a defending round then you win by default.
All MA are based on Violence. However at its base there are 2 elementary forms of violence. Predatory and Territorial. Kung fu deals with the former (both initiating and defending against) and Ring MA deal with the latter. They are not always compatible. The only way to resolve this that I can see is not to use less rules but to have a scenario.
Last edited by RenDaHai; 12-13-2012 at 09:01 AM.
Registered User
what exactly needs adapting? There are formats that allow both open and closed fist strikes, that allow gloves and no gloves, that allow trapping locks etc
The question shouldnt be how do we adapt our kung fu, the question should be why do we need to
(. Y .)
the kickboxing comment comes up from time to time and in another thread it got me to thinking to just go with it instead of "fighting" against it. So my thought is to just develop good san da skills so it's definitely got that Chinese flavor as a base and then introduce the more "traditional" style specific techniques gradually over time. That way when a person or student hard spars, they'll fall back on solid san da technique instead of trying to improvise kickboxing because they haven't been trained to kick box properly.Originally Posted by Frost
(. Y .)
It seems counter intuitive, but I really do think that if you develop a good san da base, you'd actually end up freer to grow into being a solid traditional kung fu person over time. Does that make sense?
I just see it in Judo - the competitive guys usually grow more into traditional Ju Jitsu (not to be confused with BJJ) as they age. And they get really good at applying the traditional self defense stuff. Seems to me like that would work with Kung Fu too.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
The issue of "how a style looks in fighting" is not a very complex one but it is a 2 part one:
Kung fu tends to only "look" like kung fu when the skill level difference is quite considerable.
two:
Because "specialty systems" (systems that have unique attributes to them) tend ot be drill and trained against themselves ( class environment), what makes those systems have their distinct "look" only shows up when they, basically, "fight themselves".
When they have to apply their specializes skillset VS someone that is not presenting them with the "puzzle" they are used to, the bodies most natural way of doing things tends to "take over" and you get "poor mans kickboxing".
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Registered User
I don’t think you got my point, if you have to change what you do because it doesn’t work how you want it to against a trained opponent, and you cant make it look like it does in your normal training….maybe the fault is with what you train and how you train it, not the venue you are trying to make it work in
And since when isn’t sanda traditional? Chinese masters have been fighting each other for centuries do you think they never sparred or did hard contact work before sanda was invented? what is traditional,…forms, complicated trapping? How is a palm strike, jab cross over hand uppercut etc not traditional?
GM of Hadaka Korosu
That's all fine and dandy BUT if you can't deal with an opponent in a controlled environment, that chances of doing so in an "uncontrolled' one is far, far less.
Just like if you can't beat one guy, the chances of being able to beat 2 is far less.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Itinerant practitioner
More variables in a less controlled environment. Upper hand goes to the superior weapon in that scenario. The small defeat the strong with superior weapons.
In a ring, you're matched by weight and such so it's an equal match up quite often. So, it can be anybodies win in that sense.
there is a huge difference between sport fighting and getting sucker punch with a pint glass over the head followed by a few fellas holding you down whilst another stomps you.
Kung Fu is good for you.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Like I said, if you can't be effective in a controlled environment...
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
(. Y .)
You really need to find better places to hang out
Publisher
Sanda is Kung Fu adapted to the ring. While the roots of leitai have some history, Sanda as it is played now is fairly new. It emerged from the Chinese military and has evolved into an international sport.
Gene Ching
Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
Author of Shaolin Trips
Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart
羅王宗
Fair enough
Just to clarify for others my thoughts are that it comes down to Territorial Vs Predatorial Violence;
In the ring you both want to fight. That is like two animals fighting over territory. But in the real world this can be avoided generally by backing down. And when you do fight, it is easier because you are not afraid, you are angry. SO Kung fu doesn't deal so much with this type of fight. Ring Combat is all this type of fight.
However the unavoidable predatorial combat, the one where you have the disadvantage of fear and he has the initiative. This is the one that Kung Fu is designed for (also to play the part of the predator in this). The strategy has to be different. Attack is not always the best form of defense and counter punching is only worthwhile if it makes a good impact, NOT just to score a point.
A fight is as much psychological as physical. A scenario does something to address this and deals with more strategies.
I still say pracitce both types, but in this scenario you will see traditional Kung FU become mroe useful.
Last edited by RenDaHai; 12-13-2012 at 10:36 AM.
Itinerant practitioner
adapted for the ring?
Why. there's a variety of choices of training methodologies to put on top of Kung Fu practice that can take any interested person into a sport fighting scenario.
For empty hand stuff anyway.
I doubt we'll ever see spear and sword fighting, or double axes being weilded against each other in a sport venue all too soon.
Besides, I do believe that is exactly the purpose of San Da.
Kung Fu is good for you.
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