Ring Fu

[bawang]

In my experience the overwhelming majority of people being attacked don't even try to hit back. Even amongst MAists.

they have hardened their fists, but havent hardened their hearts.

you dont fight with your fists. you fight with your heart.

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight? this is the fallacy of the MA hobby culture.

[YouKnowWho]

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight?

When someone tries to rob you and you know that you may be poorer than that person, not only you may fight back, you may rob him afterward. You will have a lot of courage when you are young, single, poor, and with nothing to lose.

This is why old Chinese saying said, "If you wear shoes, you should not mess with those who is barefoot."

[Kellen Bassette]

they have hardened their fists, but havent hardened their hearts.

you dont fight with your fists. you fight with your heart.

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight? this is the fallacy of the MA hobby culture.

That was beautiful....

[Syn7]

they have hardened their fists, but havent hardened their hearts.

you dont fight with your fists. you fight with your heart.

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight? this is the fallacy of the MA hobby culture.

When someone tries to rob you and you know that you may be poorer than that person, not only you may fight back, you may rob him afterward. You will have a lot of courage when you are young, single, poor, and with nothing to lose.

This is why old Chinese saying said, "If you wear shoes, you should not mess with those who is barefoot."

Two very good points! Intent is far more valuable than execution! If you want somebody dead and they simply want to hold you, you will most likely win. In a fair match, that is. Of course if like 40 cops come at you hard tactical, what's in your heart really can't help you much.

[Kellen Bassette]

Two very good points! Intent is far more valuable than execution! If you want somebody dead and they simply want to hold you, you will most likely win. In a fair match, that is. Of course if like 40 cops come at you hard tactical, what's in your heart really can't help you much.

So what your saying is "we should be asking ourselves how we can adapt out Kung fu to combat the oppressing paramilitaries?"

[RenDaHai]

they have hardened their fists, but havent hardened their hearts.

you dont fight with your fists. you fight with your heart.

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight? this is the fallacy of the MA hobby culture.

I like it.

I kind of agree with you there. But 'ShaXin' rage and hate, should we try to teach those things? Isn't that making their life worse?

Thats why I think for MA 'Hobbyists' learning a solid defence is the most important thing, because realistically thats the only bit their mind will let them use.

[Syn7]

So what your saying is "we should be asking ourselves how we can adapt out Kung fu to combat the oppressing paramilitaries?"

Lol. get some friends and suit up, otherwise you are fucked! There is no hand style that will prepare you for a surprise flashbang followed by 40 guys capping you with rubber bullets and smashing your face in with tac shields!

[Syn7]

I like it.

I kind of agree with you there. But 'ShaXin' rage and hate, should we try to teach those things? Isn't that making their life worse?

Thats why I think for MA 'Hobbyists' learning a solid defence is the most important thing, because realistically thats the only bit their mind will let them use.

Nada wrong with hobby MA's. Just don't be delusional about it and you're golden!

[B.Tunks]

Gino Sifu-

GS: If basic techniques like jab, cross, round kick etc are what we rely on, why do we have countless systems (Chinese, Japanese, Indian, SE Asian etc) developing specialized strikes like Mantis Hook, Cranes Beak and Pheonis Eye?

BT: We were talking about competition and sparring though. Regarding ‘specialized’ strikes, in honestly a lot of them are useless except in very specific (generally unrealistic) circumstances. There are many reasons why we have countless systems. Many of these systems are also useless for combat.

GS: If basic meat and potatoe techniques are what we resort to when in sparring / combat sports / San Shou / San Da / Muay Thai etc, then why don't all systems look the same. Why is there a Wing Chun style and Eagle Claw style? Shouldn't they all look the same if when you fight it all looks like kickboxing?

BT: Again, talking about sparring and combat sports - my argument is that when you play to a certain rule set and use equipment such as boxing gloves, most systems will look very similar/function the same way. Of course each system/school will have its technical specialties, strategies (just any individual fighter will) but ultimately it will not vary too widely. If you are talking about MMA rule-set then you would expect that we might see a little more of these ‘unique’ technical specialities. Funnily enough we don’t really see it happen too often. Mainly because generic punching, kicking, clinching, throwing techniques are the most effective under the circumstances.

GS: The only answer I have come up with is that we (as modern people) do not practice enough to actually use any specialized techniques. What if the only people that ever used specialized techniques were military personal and those with Monastic life. These individuals may have had jobs as Martial Artists where they practiced fighting 10 hours a day everyday for years and years.

BT: There is a place for the kind of technique you are talking about but its definitely not combat sports. I don’t believe for one minute though that there are deadly techniques that cannot be mastered in a short period of time by modern people. Pretty much everything under the sun in regards to unarmed combat has already been worked out and the handful of deadly techniques that actually work are already well known and can be readily applied by the average physically capable modern adult with minimal training.

GS: I have an issue with adapting my style to combat sport arenas. In my Monkey style we strictly use eye gauges, groin strikes, nerve strikes etc. If I remove these for any sport match, it is no longer Monkey style. I know I can do other techniques in sport matches but that is San Shou..... Not Monkey Style.

BT: You don't need to adapt your style (though it might be a good idea, especially if you're going to fight other styles). Your style is either useful in a range of venues or its not. If your style only consists of eye gouges, groin strikes and nerve strikes then where do you go beyond those things? They have their place, but you will be lucky if you pull those kind of attacks off more then once or twice in any real fight and if you haven’t taken out someone’s eye or dropped them with a vagus nerve strike then you’re going to do nothing but annoy the sh.it out of your opponent – unless you have a solid punch, kick, grapple game to fall back on. If your style doesn't have basic punch, kick, knee, elbow attacks and combinations then it is deficient, or at least at a disadvantage VS any other that does.

GS: San Shou and San Da are Chinese sport combat. I think the question should be: How can we successfully use specialized techniqes in modern sport combat matches?

BT: If Sanda (or Muay Thai) is not a good enough rule-set then the answer is MMA. Train your specialized techniques the same way you would train any other technique and attempt to apply them there. If MMA is not a suitable ruleset then forget about it. If you’re talking about the ‘too deadly’ techs (eyes, nerves, groin etc), save it for assault and battery or self-defence situations and pray to god they work because they're generally untested under duress. Those things can be applied in a very narrow window during combat and the proportion of attention devoted to them should be adjusted accordingly.

BT

[YouKnowWho]

Fighting can be categoried as:

1. Fight for live and death - you want to kill.
2. Tournament competation - you want to win by rules when referee is on site.
3. Unfriendly challenge - you want to hurt your opponent so no one wants to challenge you again.
4. Friendly sparring - you want to protect your training partner so he will spar with you next day.

[bawang]

I like it.

I kind of agree with you there. But 'ShaXin' rage and hate, should we try to teach those things? Isn't that making their life worse?

Thats why I think for MA 'Hobbyists' learning a solid defence is the most important thing, because realistically thats the only bit their mind will let them use.

for ma hobbyists the most important thing is to open their mind to see the world in a different way, to transform their soul.

failing that, they would only be good for milking.

[YouKnowWho]

If you want somebody dead and they simply want to hold you, you will most likely win.

This is why it's very stupid for a young guy to challenge an old guy. For that young guy, he just wants to test his skill. For the old guy, it's his life reputation that he needs to protect. The young guy may follow the friendly sparring rules while the old guy may want to hurt the young guy badly. It won't be a fair fight after all.

[MightyB]

I'm not so much advocating changing the style as I am in changing the practitioner. Here's my hypothesis: "Making a person a good San Da player will make them a better traditional martial artist".

In order to do that you must first learn how to teach solid San Da / San Shou using the San Da methods that have already been developed and tested in one on one combat. That way, the student has that skill and will always have that skill. Teach the sh*t out of specialized TCMA tech to the student for the rest of his or her life -

[Frost]

I'm not so much advocating changing the style as I am in changing the practitioner. Here's my hypothesis: "Making a person a good San Da player will make them a better traditional martial artist".

In order to do that you must first learn how to teach solid San Da / San Shou using the San Da methods that have already been developed and tested in one on one combat. That way, the student has that skill and will always have that skill. Teach the sh*t out of specialized TCMA tech to the student for the rest of his or her life -

But this hypothesis is wrong, sanda is simply fighting under an agreed rule set, if you cant do this after training your TCMA, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your TCMA
Any decent TCMA should teach solid fundermental fighting skills first, if its not then whats you point of it?

[MightyB]

But this hypothesis is wrong, sanda is simply fighting under an agreed rule set, if you cant do this after training your TCMA, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your TCMA
Any decent TCMA should teach solid fundermental fighting skills first, if its not then whats you point of it?

This is fundamentally wrong based on my point of view.

That's the whole point of a forum.

My point of view is 10yrs traditional, job change, then the only people that I had to play with were Judo, MMA (boxing & wrestling heavy), and BJJ. So my goal has been to use and adapt what I knew to those environments which I feel I've been pretty successful with but I do realize the journey of making that shift could've been easier if I would've just done regular San Da full time at some point in my earlier MA life. Doesn't mean that would've been the end-all be-all of that martial experience, but it could've been a good starting point or base to build on which some people may or may not agree with.

That doesn't mean that is everybody's path, just mine. But I also, IMO, see a lot of bad fundamental sparring when I see TCMA clips. It's my opinion based on my point of view based on my personal experience. Using my worldview, a stubborn traditionalist would've had their arse handed to them time and time again in any of the non-traditional environments that I've been to.