27 shot dead in Conneticut school

[Syn7]

The analogy applies just fine.

I want to make them criminal and evil within the human perception. That is more powerful than making them dirty or illegal.

But, illegal would be a good start.

Yeah but you used a cig analogy and went out of your way to point out that making them illegal was not necessary. So do you wanna give guns a bad name, or make them illegal or both? And do you think outlawing Cigs would have made it all happen faster and in a more positive way?

[bawang]

No doubt. But it doesn't address the reason for the assaults in the first place. If we keep using bandaids, we will just end up with a massive infected wound of a society. Arguably, we already do. This is from quick fixes and an absolute refusal to readdress certain aspects of the American constitution. Not just with crime, but in general.

the only path is transition from republic to empire.

[Syn7]

It makes sense. For some reason people don't see that a document written a few hundred years ago shouldn't need gone over or provided some maintenance. Also good to see we're making our own jobs.

Bout time ay! Manufacturing made us a great economic force. We need to replace those jobs with something. We can't all be middle men and wealthy owners.

I think the general American ideal of success is a sickness.

[Syn7]

the only path is transition from republic to empire.

Explain, please...

[Syn7]

But I just want to point out that the difference is significant. I see a lot of people on facebook citing the China Knifing spree as an argument for the right to bear arms. That is an illiterate argument - clearly those gun supporters didn't read the article complete. It actually hurts the argument for the right to bear arms more than it supports it.

Well, I would like to point out that there are distinctions between people who make money off of guns, people who just want to keep their guns and people who have an ideological issue with prohibition.

[RenDaHai]

No doubt. But it doesn't address the reason for the assaults in the first place. If we keep using bandaids, we will just end up with a massive infected wound of a society. Arguably, we already do. This is from quick fixes and an absolute refusal to readdress certain aspects of the American constitution. Not just with crime, but in general.

This is a fact of nature, it may be unfixable. Limiting their potential for damage may be our best option.


I'd like to relay to you an ancient fable;

In the beginning when Zeus constructed the Heavens and the Earth, he was proud, but tired. He wanted Animals and Men to populate it, so he bade the titan Promethius to construct men and beasts from a special kind of clay.

Promethius did as he was told. But when zeus saw his work he said there were too many animals, and too few humans. He told him to correct the balance.

But Promethius had already used all of the clay. So instead of making new humans, he took some of the animals and changed their outside form to resemble humans. But the indestructable soul, once forged could not be changed.

So it is today as it was that first day, that some humans have the form of men, but the souls of beasts.

This fable imparts valuable wisdom. It doesn't suggest a solution to the problem of evil people. It suggests that it is not a problem that can be fixed, it is simply a law of nature.

[bawang]

Explain, please...

the western world grows because of its expansionist policy. invention of mutally assured destruction nuclear weapons + rising technology level from ex slave/tribute nations means it no longer works.

constantly growth and prosperity supresses unrest. people are literally too happy to care. food, sex, drugs, music, games.

when you stop growing, unrest and squalor comes back. so america needs to switch from an expansionist policy with low citizen control to isolationalist policy with high control.


china is becoming more free because it is growing rich. when the growth stops there will be another mao.

[RenDaHai]

Yeah but you used a cig analogy and went out of your way to point out that making them illegal was not necessary. So do you wanna give guns a bad name, or make them illegal or both? And do you think outlawing Cigs would have made it all happen faster and in a more positive way?

I see.

But the image we want for cigarettes and drugs is something that can be explored but not made into a habit. Because they are fun in moderation.

But with Guns every measure needs to be taken to make them evil in the publics perception. Making them illegal is a good start.

[Syn7]

This is a fact of nature, it may be unfixable. Limiting their potential for damage may be our best option.


I'd like to relay to you an ancient fable;

In the beginning when Zeus constructed the Heavens and the Earth, he was proud, but tired. He wanted Animals and Men to populate it, so he bade the titan Promethius to construct men and beasts from a special kind of clay.

Promethius did as he was told. But when zeus saw his work he said there were too many animals, and too few humans. He told him to correct the balance.

But Promethius had already used all of the clay. So instead of making new humans, he took some of the animals and changed their outside form to resemble humans. But the indestructable soul, once forged could not be changed.

So it is today as it was that first day, that some humans have the form of men, but the souls of beasts.

This fable imparts valuable wisdom. It doesn't suggest a solution to the problem of evil people. It suggests that it is not a problem that can be fixed, it is simply a law of nature.

While I do agree that many people are bad and will continue to be bad regardless of education and consequences, I do NOT believe that most criminals are inherently bad people. If we can save those people from criminality, the VERY few truly disturbed will seem like a minor issue. You following me? I know what you mean, I just don't think our main problems are rooted with EVIL people. There are more psychopaths successful in business than there are psychopath killers. We need to re-orient our ideas of what is right and what is wrong and develop some sort of consistency that reflects reality. Bankers cause more harm than criminals. How many bankers on death row?

[Syn7]

the western world grows because of its expansionist policy. invention of mutally assured destruction nuclear weapons + rising technology level from ex slave/tribute nations means it no longer works.

constantly growth and prosperity supresses unrest. people are literally too happy to care. food, sex, drugs, music, games.

when you stop growing, unrest and squalor comes back. so america needs to switch from an expansionist policy with low citizen control to isolationalist policy with high control.


china is becoming more free because it is growing rich. when the growth stops there will be another mao.

I see. I agree. Expansionism can not be the foundation of your progressive movement.

That being said, a simple attitude adjustment can solve that problem. Wanting to live healthy, happy and equally is more healthy than competing and knocking eachother down in selfish quests for excessive wealth.

[bawang]

While I do agree that many people are bad and will continue to be bad regardless of education and consequences, I do NOT believe that most criminals are inherently bad people.

many criminals have genetic defects that makes them biologically incapable of feeling empathy, fear, or remorse. many more have permanent mental defects from childhood. (fetal alcohol syndrome)

thats why reform based punishment never works. only capital punishment as hard eugenics.

I see. I agree. Expansionism can not be the foundation of your progressive movement.

That being said, a simple attitude adjustment can solve that problem. Wanting to live healthy, happy and equally is more healthy than competing and knocking eachother down in selfish quests for excessive wealth.

its about being satisfied, even if it means reducing america to a third world nation. thats why it wont happen willingly.

[RenDaHai]

While I do agree that many people are bad and will continue to be bad regardless of education and consequences, I do NOT believe that most criminals are inherently bad people. If we can save those people from criminality, the VERY few truly disturbed will seem like a minor issue. You following me? I know what you mean, I just don't think our main problems are rooted with EVIL people. There are more psychopaths successful in business than there are psychopath killers. We need to re-orient our ideas of what is right and what is wrong and develop some sort of consistency that reflects reality. Bankers cause more harm than criminals. How many bankers on death row?

I see what you mean.

But it doesn't even have to be inherantly evil people. In a society there will always be those people who fall off the end. I mean look at our world compared to the ancient world.... Look at the privilege of our society compared to others. We still have as many criminals. This fable was written over 2000 years ago and it addresses the problem that we still see today. Maybe there will always be this element in society.

The greatest privilege in this life is to have good loving parents. Money doesn't matter one bit. Even when we get to a place where our society has amazing education that is equal for all, we still can't save a person from all his influences. His family, his friends. His DNA.

[bawang]

to the ancient world.... Look at the privilege of our society compared to others. We still have as many criminals. .

we have MORE. this is not the status quo. fundamental things in our civilization have changed.

I see what you mean.

But it doesn't even have to be inherantly evil people.

there are plenty of people out there who are inherently evil. modern western society SELECTS for evolutionary traits that are categorized by religion as evil.

[Syn7]

its about being satisfied, even if it means reducing america to a third world nation. thats why it wont happen willingly.

No, it's about unrealistic unsustainable expectations! These are not inherent to human nature. These are social constructs that can be changed with time. Maybe they will need to hit bottom to change. But like an alcoholic, not everyone needs to lose everything in order to make positive change. Sometimes a lil knowledge and wisdom does the trick.

[Syn7]

The greatest privilege in this life is to have good loving parents. Money doesn't matter one bit. Even when we get to a place where our society has amazing education that is equal for all, we still can't save a person from all his influences. His family, his friends. His DNA.

Sure we can. We do it all the time. For All The Above. The bigger question is....

do we have the right to profile citizens that show no criminality in their actions? Should we map all babies genomes and correct them early? Is that a good or bad thing? Does this open up more doors to bad situations or close them? Should we take children away from parents that don't follow the cookie cutter mold? Would they be better off with or without them and how do we decide? Where do we draw the line? Or do we handle it on a case by case level?

None of this is easy.