What was known about Shaolin Kung Fu prior to the 20th century?

[wenshu]

[falkor]

When it comes to movies anyhow, advanced people probably have an easy time imitating styles, at least superficially. They wouldn't have to study with a master to do film work. A lot of those films were done with dancers, generally athletic people, or similar. They just needed a coach (action director) on set.

I know of a tradtional teacher in Deng Feng who used to teach performance Wushu for the money. He just made it up, taking the traditional moves and exaggerating them to look more spectacular. People at that level can ham things up, do imitations, and generally horse around with ease. Even lots of teenage students do effortless imitations of other styles (no real substance, but it looks nice). They absorb movements easily. That's MORE than good enough for HK flicks.

What you describe is definitely plausible, but sounds a lot like speculation to me.

[rett]

What you describe is definitely plausible, but sounds a lot like speculation to me.

Not much speculation there. (Embarassingly enough) I've listened to the commentary tracks of a lot of HK action films, which describe exactly what I wrote, and personally witnessed the other parts I described in China at and around a small traditional school for Northern Shaolin.

[falkor]

Yes, they are southern practitioners. The clue is in their names. This is not mandarin language.

Kam Yuen is from Hong Kong. He did learn 'northern shaolin'. This is not song shan shaolin. I have seen it. it is clearly related to song shan and from there at some point. All the techniques are identical but the performance style is not. When you remove it from SOng shan you remove the influence of the mountain styles and it stops being song shan kung fu. The forms are different. This guy knew a lot of different kung fu.

Ark wong is also southern from canton. 'Sil Lum' is the southern language for Shaolin.

Your explanation sounds a bit sketchy to me. You've mentioned all these different types of Wushu and other classes taught at Shaolin, and now you are saying that there is a different "northern Shaolin" style that is different to Song Shan Shaolin with different forms? Could please provide some links to websites or videos to explain these differences? How do these masters enter the Hall of Fame and get given "Grandmaster of Shaolin Kung Fu" if they are simply frauds? You may be right about their places of birth or upbringing, but then I'm not sure if that's relevant.

[kwaichang]

You have no concept of Wu De do you. You bring dishonor to all who know you. To take the time to construct a pic as you did is childish, immature and nothing but , self seeking. You really need alot of good meds and Psychological treatments. KC

[falkor]

Fleeing what? They had no need to run away. Even in 1928 when it was burned down, it wasn't done so to kill people but to remove the Shaolin temple as a strategic position and also because the guy who did it was an *sshole. He was buried alive for his crime.

When monks left shaolin they simply went back to their families usually a couple of villages over OR if none were around they stayed in one of the many welcoming temples nearby. Song shan has many many temples.

Why go further? No one was hunting them.

Even nowadays some of the villages I visited had no road and I had to walk through the mountains to get there. Some masters had no electricity. Thats now. In 1904? WHo was going around these places hunting monks and teaching them all modern stuff? The traditions in these places don't change fast. There is no way to make that happen. I learned XiaoHOng quan in one village and they said they hadn't changed it in 500 years....I saw a 90 y.o old master do it exactly the same as I was taught in the village. And he told me as a boy his 90 y.o master did it the same as well. I believe them. This is the same technique as is practiced in Shaolin now. The same as all the old masters I met practiced. All form different parts of the mountain and some fromt the temple. DOn't you think it is more likely it that that IS shaolin technique?

Many political events in history have been enough to drive out entire populations from villages or towns depending on the threat. If Shaolin was a closed-door temple, which I am going to argue for next then the surrounding villages need not be affected, but organisation and management of the temple would have broken down with key members leaving the province. If the laymen lost their masters and other key figureheads then they may have been forced to learn new techniques from villages further afield.

Is the 8 Drunken Imortals style still taught in Song Shan? That and attacking pressure points are the only styles that Shahar proved were proper monastery-based--together with Plum Flower Fist--before the 18th century. If Traditional/Chuantong no longer features these then you can bet they were lost from Song Shan during times of upheaval and subsequently preserved in other parts of China (or Taiwan). This would then really be the smoking gun in this whole debate.

[rett]

Many political events in history have been enough to drive out entire populations from villages or towns depending on the threat. If Shaolin was a closed-door temple, which I am going to argue for next then the surrounding villages need not be affected, but organisation and management of the temple would have broken down with key members leaving the province. If the laymen lost their masters and other key figureheads then they may have been forced to learn new techniques from villages further afield.

Is the 8 Drunken Imortals style still taught in Song Shan? That and attacking pressure points are the only styles that Shahar proved were proper monastery-based--together with Plum Flower Fist--before the 18th century. If Traditional/Chuantong no longer features these then you can bet they were lost to Song Shan during times of upheaval and subsequently preserved in other parts of China (or Taiwan). This would then really be the smoking gun in this whole debate.

Perhap, but that sounds like a lot of speculation to me

[rett]

you guys realize this guy doesnt actually train any martial arts except from books and dvds? and you just wasted hours giving answers to this guy who replies "no i think you are wrong"

are you posting to help or just for ego, to show your abundance of knowledge? thats not chan. chan is to explain in the simplest shortest form possible.

RDHs stuff makes for great reading.

Why does anyone ever write anything?

[RenDaHai]

Your explanation sounds a bit sketchy to me. You've mentioned all these different types of Wushu and other classes taught at Shaolin, and now you are saying that there is a different "northern Shaolin" style that is different to Song Shan Shaolin with different forms? Could please provide some links to websites or videos to explain these differences? How do these masters enter the Hall of Fame and get given "Grandmaster of Shaolin Kung Fu" if they are simply frauds? You may be right about their places of birth or upbringing, but then I'm not sure if that's relevant.

Look up BSL and northern Shaolin. It is not Song Shan Shaolin. Though it is close. They are not the same forms.

There is a LOT of information on this exact topic.

THey are not frauds, their style IS called NOrthern Shaolin. But it is a branch of Shaolin separated from song shan and then propagated in the south. Hence its name is usually 'Bak Sil Lum' which is cantonese for Northern Shaolin. Cantonese means instantly not from Henan.

There are 10000 styles that call themselves Shaolin. To simplify the situation we call ones from the vicinity of the temple 'Song Shan Shaolin'.

There is not some governing body that gives people the title 'Grandmaster of Shaolin' they usually give it to themselves or a student does.

There is no person who can claim to be grandmaster of shaolin.

[RenDaHai]

Is the 8 Drunken Imortals style still taught in Song Shan? That and attacking pressure points are the only styles that Shahar proved were proper monastery-based--together with Plum Flower Fist--before the 18th century. If Traditional/Chuantong no longer features these then you can bet they were lost to Song Shan during times of upheaval and subsequently preserved in other parts of China (or Taiwan). This would then really be the smoking gun in this whole debate.

I don't remember Shahar proving this, could you quote?

8 Drunken immortals are Taoist gods and have no place in Shaolin.

Attacking pressure points is in every style of Kung fu.

[A Joyful Proces]

--together with Plum Flower Fist--before the 18th century. If Traditional/Chuantong no longer features these then you can bet they were lost to Song Shan during times of upheaval and subsequently preserved in other parts of China (or Taiwan). This would then really be the smoking gun in this whole debate.

Lau Kar Leung has a style called Plum flower fist he states originates directly from Siu Lum temple... it is not the typical hung gar plum flower fist "Mui Fah Kuen" many hung lineages practice, but a plum fist which he is one of the only practitioners to carry, along with a temple origin story... he has only taught it to a few students & it is considered top form/style in his lineage after the iron wire etc...

[Scott R. Brown]

Just to be very clear here:

History ALWAYS involves speculation! It is NEVER exact in any way. Even the same event observed and participated in by numerous people is ALWAYS experienced and interpreted differently!

So, claims that statements here sound like speculation is ignoring the unreliability of historical data!

[falkor]

Just an addition;


What is a Shaolin Temple Kung Fu form and what is not?

There is this myth that Shaolin was this ISOLATED temple where no one was allowed to leave and secret kung fu was practiced within the walls only.

This probably never happened. Shaolin Kung fu was in constant flux crossing with the Kung fu of the local villages and absorbing the Kung fu from monks of all china who came there.

There is no way we can say whether a form was created inside the temple walls or not. Why? Because quite literally the walls were not always there. Think of Song Shan as a city and Shaolin as a district.

Where then do we draw the line? Kung Fu from all china pays homage to shaolin.

The line is SONG SHAN. Why? Because when Kung fu goes to another part of china it is influenced by the local styles. But in SOng Shan all the local styles are Shaolin. So things stay shaolin like. That is why all the Kung fu in SOng Shan has that Shaolin flavour.

SO when we see Shaolin Kung Fu from another part of China, it is not quite Shaolin. Even when it has a strong lineage it will be influenced by its local styles. So it looks less like Shaolin.

Kung Fu that comes from Song Shan keeps the influence of other SOng Shan styles and the SHaolin temple itself and so Song Shan Kung fu is the ancestral Shaolin.

You cannot seperate SOng Shan and Shaolin. Song Mountain is a breathing creature and the Shaolin temple is its heart.

(This reminds me of a wonderful local legend that ShaoShi Shan is hollow and inside lives a gigantic snake that is fed by the people of the mountian)

I've thought a lot about this. Here's why in my opinion I think the boundaries of the temple were indeed the walls and why no villages were attached to the monastery at that time:
*I don't think anybody off the street could, just, not only enter the temple, but also learn martial arts there.
*No visitors to the temple described having to pass through any villages on the outside of the temple with martial artists practising the same as what was taught inside the temple.
*The monks only seemed to entertain important visitors or those with a certain kind of reputation who had been granted special permission to study there.
*In 1828 a prominent Manchu official named Lin Qing visited the temple. At first the monks wouldn't talk about Shaolin Kung Fu, but then they gave a demonstration. A woodblock illustration was published showing the demonstration from inside the temple.
*Numerous martial artists claimed to have learnt from the temple, as though it was special to get admittance and instruction there. If anyone could approach the Shaolin temple and learn their Kung Fu from the immediate surrounding villages then the claim to Shaolin would carry no significance.
*Again, I don't believe these villages existed in ancient times. All villages would have been spread apart about 10-30 miles. Tai Chi was developed 35 miles north of the temple. Xingyi was created in Shanxi province.
*Shaolin hand combat had prospered in a region (Henan province) that had played a major role in the evolution of Chinese bare-handed fighting.
*By 1904 (probably early 19th century), Shaolin Kung Fu was no longer taught (easily) within 10 miles of the monastery, say. Many techniques were lost due to the fleeing of the fighting monks except Plum Flower Fist. Surviving laymen would have then turned their attention to Tai Chi and Xingyi in the nearest villages and re-developed Shaolin Kung Fu as Hong Quan?

BTW, Shahar says that Hong Fist (Hong Quan) is a southern style related to Shaolin by legend only, but he might be talking about a different style to the Hong Quan mentioned in this topic?

[falkor]

I don't remember Shahar proving this, could you quote?

8 Drunken immortals are Taoist gods and have no place in Shaolin.

Attacking pressure points is in every style of Kung fu.

"Following their exposition of hand combat principles, the two manuals
detail specific fighting styles, first of which is the “Drunken Eight-Immortals
Fist” (Zui baxian quan) (figure 26). The eight Daoist immortals have been
borrowed from late Ming lore, in which they were depicted as carefree, often"
lascivious, drunks. Novels and plays usually associate each of the insouciant
saints with a given emblem: a flute, a flower basket, a gourd, a whisk, etc. The
martial artist mimics wielding the icon in his training routine, which, even
as it appears intoxicated, is perfectly sober. The “Drunken Eight-Immortals
Fist,” sometimes referred to as the “Drunken Fist,” is still practiced today. In
recent decades it has become internationally renowned through Jackie
Chan’s (Cheng Long) (b. 1954) theatrical rendition in his blockbuster movie
Drunken Master (Zui quan) (1978). The style’s occurrence in Hand Combat
Classic and Xuanji’s Acupuncture Points might indicate that it has been practiced
at the Shaolin Monastery since as early as the seventeenth century.

Fig. 26. The “Eight-Immortals Drunken Step” in Hand Combat
Classic."

[falkor]

Shahar also shows that a style known as Confounding-Track Fist was taught at Shaolin in it's original form (Confounding Fist). This was attributed to Huo Yuajia (1869-1909) and featured in Jet Li's Fearless. Is that style still taught at Shaolin today?