What was known about Shaolin Kung Fu prior to the 20th century?

[bawang]

Of course different techniques would have been created, imported, compiled and taught at the temple. Since Shaolin did become a hotbed of Kung Fu training at the center of neighbouring Kung Fu villages, it's possible that several styles were even pioneered at the temple. For certain between the Ming-Qing and 1904 there would have been a corpus of styles and techniques known as Shaolin Quan AKA Shaolin Kung Fu, but what exactly did it consist of...? After 1904 Kung Fu was no longer being practised at the temple; the modern day Wu Shu Monks are not descended from the original monks nor do they learn the same Shaolin Kung Fu that was being taught at Shaolin prior to 1904. What was the original Shaolin Kung Fu? Without having to look into different people's claims about having preserved elements of Shaolin Kung Fu on the island of Taiwan throughout the Cultural Revolution, there must be some 18th-19th century source that gives us a rough idea what real Shaolin Kung Fu was? This information must be known, but Shahar's book is not a history of Shaolin Kung Fu, but a history of the monks and monastery. Is my question not clear in any way? Can anyone please shed any light regarding a possible answer?

shaolin temple practiced and still practice hong quan, which means default/generic boxing. thats why xiao hongquan is called the mother of all shaolin kung fu.

the original shaolin kung fu is small hong quan, big hong quan, and two roads hongquan (guandong +guanxi)

[ninjashaolin]

It be nice to have videos of these early shaolin forms.

[pazman]

It be nice to have videos of these early shaolin forms.

This thread? Search function? Youtube search?

[falkor]

The techniques of Shaolin, Wudang, Taiji, XingYi, Pao Chui, TongBei, Zha Quan, Hua Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan etc. etc. Are all largely identical. They are performed slightly differently due to local culture and sometime they have different names. But often the same.

Besides having similar elements and similar strikes or movements, how can they all be the same? You cannot possibly say that the 12 Xing Yi Quan animal forms are the same as the 5 Shaolin animal forms? That is why all northern techniques are classified unofficially as Wudang (everything else is Shaolin). I'm not saying I agree with the Wudang Vs. Shaolin classification or that all styles were not less dissimilar before 1904, but certainly now they have evolved to become completely different--no?

[falkor]

shaolin temple practiced and still practice hong quan, which means default/generic boxing. thats why xiao hongquan is called the mother of all shaolin kung fu.

the original shaolin kung fu is small hong quan, big hong quan, and two roads hongquan (guandong +guanxi)

I thought the monks now practise modern Wu Shu? At least that's what they perform on tours. Is Hong Quan another name for Wu Shu or part of the Wu Shu system perhaps?

[pazman]

falkor, what style do you practice?

A lot of this has been discussed to death on these forums and it might help if you read some of the other threads in the Shaolin section.

[falkor]

...you need to subscribe.

I address this topic in several sections, most notably the early chapters which set up the context as well as some of the masters sections, where some prominent figures from that transitional era are profiled. Also, you should look into our Wushu in the White House series which we ran in 2004. It has been tackled numerous times in our magazine.

This is addressed in my book in the early chapters as well. This has been addressed in a few articles in our past Shaolin Specials too.

I include some peripheral discussion of this within some of the masters chapters.

I don't address this so much as my book is not about that. Again, it is addressed in several magazine articles. All of our past table of contents are accessible here and all of our past cover stories are available here.

This is also in the early chapters. It is mostly about the U.S. tours, but as I did a lot of work with some of the initial European tour promoters, there is some peripheral discussion of the world tours.


Nope. Hard copy only. Get Shaolin Trips through Amazon and it'll help my sales numbers there.

It looks like I need to buy your book ASAP! If I subscribe to the magazine do I get access to back issues, including all past articles (I see you already allow free access to cover articles)? I don't think subscribing to future issues is going to help me a great deal as my novice questions would have more chance of being addressed in earlier issues. BTW, the masters section sounds really interesting. Right now I only have RenDaHai's testimony of his master's training in the 1930s and claim to Shaolin. With more testimony--and providing all the masters tell similar details--it would be possible to build up a better picture of 19th century Shaolin Kung Fu. If one master's testimony didn't match the majority then he was most likely a fraud.

No disrespect to RenDaHai, but it doesn't sound like his master and other old village men were telling him the whole story or the complete truth about what happened during their early lifetime as well as that of their masters? I'm still a bit concerned that RenDaHai believes there were no gaps and disbelieves that a lot of the original Shaolin Kung Fu was preserved in Taiwan (many Kung Fu styles were lost on the mainland). RenDaHai is even claiming that the monks practise the same today what they did back in the day.

RenDaHai, do you think Chairman Mao was a good man or a bad man? China is good at covering up the real history; that's the problem! Sigh...

[falkor]

falkor, what style do you practice?

A lot of this has been discussed to death on these forums and it might help if you read some of the other threads in the Shaolin section.

Could you please help me narrow down my search?

[falkor]

Nothing like passing the buck, right? As for modern history, read my book (see Shaolin Trips by Gene Ching). You can also read Matt's book (see American Shaolin by Matt Polly). For more on Shahar's book, see our discussion on it here: The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar

One of the most informative replies in that topic is as follows:

Shahar did a very thorough job research all the written records that are out there about the topic and proved things for Shaolin.

He couldn't prove EXACTLY what martial art sets and drills they practiced, since that is not in written records, but he did prove that many historical records show that they did practice something, mostly because their martial education came from outside the temple, from the military. Shaolin was basically the National Guard for the Tang Dynasty and later for the Ming.

Being that Shahar isn't a martial arts that knows Shaolin sets, often in the book he is providing all these great proofs for other Shaolin based martial arts (Tai Zu, Mi tsung, Mei Hua, and others) without even realizing it, in my opinion.

For people that do know and research the actual martial art sets and drills, they can build from this book and provide further research.

What annoys me is that the guy who wrote that reply is the author of all these articles, which are about 90% myth/legend and 10% history:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/index.htm
His name is Sal Canzonieri

[RenDaHai]

Right now I only have RenDaHai's testimony of his master's training in the 1930s and claim to Shaolin. With more testimony--and providing all the masters tell similar details--it would be possible to build up a better picture of 19th century Shaolin Kung Fu. If one master's testimony didn't match the majority then he was most likely a fraud.

No disrespect to RenDaHai, but it doesn't sound like his master and other old village men were telling him the whole story or the complete truth about what happened during their early lifetime as well as that of their masters? I'm still a bit concerned that RenDaHai believes there were no gaps and disbelieves that a lot of the original Shaolin Kung Fu was preserved in Taiwan (many Kung Fu styles were lost on the mainland). RenDaHai is even claiming that the monks practise the same today what they did back in the day.

RenDaHai, do you think Chairman Mao was a good man or a bad man? China is good at covering up the real history; that's the problem! Sigh...

Hahah. My story is far more likely than any other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NrLSCa16no

This is master CuiXiQI. He was born in 1922. He lives within 10 miles of Shaolin and always has. Kung Fu was outlawed between 1949-1972. This we know as fact. Do you think he learned this form since 1972? When he was 50? DO you think the 1500 catalogued forms of Song Mountain were all magically created in one go at this time? Who would have such skill. That would be far more impressive and far less believable than thw 1000 years of evolution story. How come ALL the old teachers know this form? Look them up. There are a lot of them.

YOu think that the 10's of THOUSANDS of people who know shaolin Kung Fu in the Dengfeng area all decided to flee 800 miles south to Taiwan, magically predicting what would befall china under mao?? Who said they weren't communist, I bet it seemed like a good idea at the time. After all the fighting with Japan and stuff.

Obviously the THOUSANDS who practiced Kung fu stayed in their home villages as rural people from an undeveloped country are prone to do. If some escaped to Taiwan the burdon of proof is with them. I have never seen song shan forms in Taiwanese born styles.

Chairman Mao is up there with the most evil men in all history.

[RenDaHai]

Besides having similar elements and similar strikes or movements, how can they all be the same? You cannot possibly say that the 12 Xing Yi Quan animal forms are the same as the 5 Shaolin animal forms? That is why all northern techniques are classified unofficially as Wudang (everything else is Shaolin). I'm not saying I agree with the Wudang Vs. Shaolin classification or that all styles were not less dissimilar before 1904, but certainly now they have evolved to become completely different--no?

5 Animals is southern Kung Fu and that is a little different. I quoted northern styles.

the 12 Xing Yi Moves are extremely standard technques which appear in ALL the other styles I mentioned.

The names I mentioned, Dan bian, Xie XIng, Qi Xing, Chong tian pao? They appear in every style. They are used the same way. They are the same technique.

IT is the techniques which are the same accross the styles.

Name a technique, go ahead. Watch a video of northern Kung fu and pick any move and I will tell you about it and how to find it in other forms.

[RenDaHai]

The forms I posted videos of are ALL old forms, are ALL practiced today and were ALL practiced a long time ago as evidenced by the fact that versions of each of them appear in the many village styles AS WELL AS in the Shaolin temple. They are all different enough to know they were not created recently or learned from the same person but they are all similar enough to know they are the same form.

SOme ARE written down as a sequence of names, a poem. This is the Quan Pu manual. It describes the name of a move and how to use it. The poem is only useful if you know that move.

[falkor]

RenDaHai, forget about that, I'm now more concerned with something else... I was just searching the forum, and in another topic, you state that you've never found any strong evidence that the 5 animal styles were ever part of Shaolin Kung Fu. You said something along the lines that none of the northern Shaolin styles imitate animals, so their animals don't look like the 5 animals (known from southern boxing styles). You are so controversial it's unreal! My opinion is that:
*Today's Shaolin Kung Fu is nothing like what was taught 18th/19th centuries.
*Many styles of Shaolin/Kung Fu have been lost.
*5 Animals is originally from Shaolin and survives through styles of the south.
I stick by that, but I already know you don't agree, so you don't have to defend yourself.

[RenDaHai]

RenDaHai, forget about that, I'm now more concerned with something else... I was just searching the forum, and in another topic, you state that you've never found any strong evidence that the 5 animal styles were ever part of Shaolin Kung Fu. You said something along the lines that none of the northern Shaolin styles imitate animals, so their animals don't look like the 5 animals (known from southern boxing styles). You are so controversial it's unreal! My opinion is that:
*Today's Shaolin Kung Fu is nothing like what was taught 18th/19th centuries.
*Many styles of Shaolin/Kung Fu have been lost.
*5 Animals is originally from Shaolin and survives through styles of the south.
I stick by that, but I already know you don't agree, so you don't have to defend yourself.

I STICK by my previous statement.

The 5 animals ARE a southern thing. I have seen NO evidence to suggest the 5 animals (being snake, crane, leopard, tiger, dragon) appeared in old SongShan forms. It IS possible they did, but I have seen NO old SHaolin form with those animals. We have INDIVIDUAL techniques (White snake spits venom, white crane spreads wings etc.). Also there are TIGER forms, LEOPARD forms DRAGON forms. But they do not imitate the animal and they are not together as 5 animals a set. The tiger doesn't look like tiger, it just has the name. Same with rushing leopard or Azure dragon.

We have ONE example. WuXIngBaFa. That was learned in the modern schools in DengFeng in the 90's. It is not old Shaolin. It comes form a family sect outside of SHaolin. That style is called Da JinGang Quan. It is clearly a Song Shan based style however it is not from there. Why they called it 5 animals is their reason. (Also bear in mind WuXIng is NOT 5 animals but 5 Forms/shapes)


I can't speak for all Shaolin today, but the style I practice contains the same forms as pracitced in the 18th and 19th centuries. I know this because of what I have seen it is more improbable for that not to be true. As to the methods they used to train, i don't know. But the techniques are the same, and have probably been so for 1000 years as evidenced by the same techs being present in ALL forms across ALL china.

It IS possible that the 5 animals comes from the North, it is possible. But no forms exist in Song Shan to prove this.

[falkor]

Hahah. My story is far more likely than any other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NrLSCa16no

This is master CuiXiQI. He was born in 1922. He lives within 10 miles of Shaolin and always has. Kung Fu was outlawed between 1949-1972. This we know as fact. Do you think he learned this form since 1972? When he was 50? DO you think the 1500 catalogued forms of Song Mountain were all magically created in one go at this time? Who would have such skill. That would be far more impressive and far less believable than thw 1000 years of evolution story. How come ALL the old teachers know this form? Look them up. There are a lot of them.

YOu think that the 10's of THOUSANDS of people who know shaolin Kung Fu in the Dengfeng area all decided to flee 800 miles south to Taiwan, magically predicting what would befall china under mao?? Who said they weren't communist, I bet it seemed like a good idea at the time. After all the fighting with Japan and stuff.

Obviously the THOUSANDS who practiced Kung fu stayed in their home villages as rural people from an undeveloped country are prone to do. If some escaped to Taiwan the burdon of proof is with them. I have never seen song shan forms in Taiwanese born styles.

Chairman Mao is up there with the most evil men in all history.

OK, well argued, my friend! We'll revisit this debate another time... but right now I'm out of my depth. However, I've just found a UK supplier for Gene Ching's Shaolin Trips--my order has been successfully placed! Thank you for your time debating with me, as you are the only one whose really contributed to this discussion together with some good simple suggestions coming from Gene Ching. Just tell me one last thing before I go away and contemplate your teachings... have you spotted any patterns between northern and southern styles of Kung Fu? If so, what southern styles are most similar to northern, and what are the forms common to both?