Incorporating Ground Fighting in Shaolin

[LaRoux]

Apparently it's because I'm discussing it with folks who lack any imagination and common sense to realize the adjustments to the action when standing vs lying down, or dynamic action vs static pictures... I wasn't expecting you'd be that dull here.

Then why not simply show the image of the Shaolin ground technique that does this?

This is another difference between what you are attempting to do with your Shaolin "ground" techniques and what BJJ does. In BJJ, there is no imagining things. You simply use the techniques exactly the way you are shown them.

No. The arms in the action I've been describing work just like either of these two videos show. This is a pretty basic and standard trap, bridge, and roll escape, however you like to call it. Extending the arm is essential for the leverage in this technique to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lliV8tf2PUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hbtfwu6Uhc

Notice that in both clips, neither arm is extended the way your image showed.

[LFJ]

Then why not grab an image of an actual Shaolin ground technique instead?

Because in a gross manner it is the same action applied in a different situation, which I don't have a picture of, but I thought you folks were familiar enough with this type of escape to make the obvious adjustments in your minds.

Instead I read something like the response from "Shaolin" who said, yeah I could do this lock and that lock, from this position and that position. I mean for real. He knows all those moves can't imagine what a basic trap, bridge, and roll escape looks like?

BJJ has hundreds or thousands of techniques with are learned in context with a partner. The basic principle of learning these techniques are to learn each with a compliant partner and then immediately use them in sparring situations against non-compliant partners. BJJ has no forms, per se.

I guess it depends on your teacher, but you can certainly train the mechanics of the techniques as a solo practice. This is practicing form. Same difference really.

[LFJ]

This is another difference between what you are attempting to do with your Shaolin "ground" techniques and what BJJ does. In BJJ, there is no imagining things. You simply use the techniques exactly the way you are shown them.

In Shaolin, one gross action can be slightly modified to be applied in many different situations and as different interpretations, i.e. as strikes, joint locks, throws, etc.. Of course you would need not image if you were shown each.

Notice that in both clips, neither arm is extended the way your image showed.

I don't know how to rotate the angle anymore on the drawing, but if I coud implore you to image once more...

I just snapped this screen shot from the first video. As you can see, viewing from the same angle, if the drawing continued rolling to the left, the arms would be in exactly the same position. Not only is there no risk of armbar, but it is essential to the leverage in the technique:

[LaRoux]

I don't know how to rotate the angle anymore on the drawing, but if I coud implore you to image once more...

I just snapped this screen shot from the first video. As you can see, viewing from the same angle, if the drawing continued rolling to the left, the arms would be in exactly the same position. Not only is there no risk of armbar, but it is essential to the leverage in the technique:

The BJJ technique is partner and positionally contextually based. The Shaolin one you are showing is not. That's the difference between what makes the BJJ one effective and the one you are trying to show not effective.

There can be no technique when you take it out of the context. That's why most BJJ techniques are shown with a partner.

[Shaolin]

Didn't say anything about your skill, just your experience. You clearly got your forms from VCDs.

Oh it is absolutely obviously, clear. So why don't you post a video of me or my students playing a form and then write a detailed outline of your theory on how I learned my forms from video.

I'm going to beat this horse to death, flip it over and beat it to death again. You're treading on my reputation which affects my business. This doesn't make me happy. Put up or shut up.

As far as the thread is concerned I don't care about that topic anymore, because in my opinion you have a 1990's mentality that your system is fine and is good enough therefore one doesn't need to cross train. But how do you know? That's my whole point of asking your experience and who your coaches are/were? Which you still have not answered. Because if you haven't grappled outside of your respected system how can you be sure that the theories you've learned would actually work?

[LFJ]

So why don't you post a video of me or my students playing a form and then write a detailed outline of your theory on how I learned my forms from video.

I saw it a long time ago. Don't know where it is now. Why don't you post it, if it hasn't been deleted?

As far as the thread is concerned I don't care about that topic anymore, because in my opinion you have a 1990's mentality that your system is fine and is good enough therefore one doesn't need to cross train. But how do you know? That's my whole point of asking your experience and who your coaches are/were? Which you still have not answered. Because if you haven't grappled outside of your respected system how can you be sure that the theories you've learned would actually work?

The system is fine because in its centuries of development it has always been about cross training, and therefore incorporates various aspects of fighting. As I've shown it contains essentially the same sort of techniques as applied in BJJ. The ultimate objective is just different. Whether it is "good enough" depends entirely on the practitioner. I've done a fair bit of cross training and/or hard sparring with other styles and never felt as if Shaolin was seriously lacking. Your experience was different because... your experience is different and your Shaolin is lacking.

[LFJ]

The BJJ technique is partner and positionally contextually based. The Shaolin one you are showing is not.

You seem to think Shaolin forms were created based on ideas of what fighting is like. The actions came from what worked in combat. The individual actions were then drilled in solo practice (and partner drills) to make them habit. Much later they were compiled into forms to retain them.

There can be no technique when you take it out of the context. That's why most BJJ techniques are shown with a partner.

In the video they also show the form of the BJJ actions in solo practice. It's the same thing Shaolin does/did. Since they're doing it without a partner does that mean it's suddenly ineffective as a technique?

That's the difference between what makes the BJJ one effective and the one you are trying to show not effective.

They are essentially the same technique, and follow the same principles.

If you listen to the first few seconds of the first video, what does he say? That the standard variation "teaches you the principles of the trap and roll technique". They then transfer those principles to other variations to handle different situations, with obvious adjustments to fit the position. It's the same thing.

In fact, it's the same thing I've always been on about in this thread. From stand up, to ground, to weapon defense, Shaolin employs the same principles and many of the same gross actions can be modified to function in response to different situations or to be applied as different interpretations. It's a principle based system.