Incorporating Ground Fighting in Shaolin

[Kellen Bassette]

I know there's folks here who believe ground fighting was never trained in the Shaolin arts; I disagree with this, but we can save that conversation for another thread.

So, for the sake of discussion, assuming GF was never a part of Shaolin Kung Fu; but knowing that Shaolin has a history of incorporating other styles into its' repertoire, refining and Shaolinizing them; in a day and age where GF is well known, wouldn't it be in the tradition of Shaolin to bring some of these techniques into the fold?

I personally believe that if BJJ had become popular in 17th century Henan, these techs would have been trained and refined at Shaolin.

I'm not talking about teaching the entire BJJ curriculum and calling it SKF; but at a minimum, what's so wrong about teaching how to defend/pass in guard/mount/side control?

I feel if you profess to teach self defense and your student asks, "what happens if I end up on the ground," and you say, "don't let anyone take you down," your doing him a great disservice. Ground fighting is well known and prevalent in 2013; and at a minimum, anyone interested in self defense should know enough to defend from the ground and have a fighting chance to get back on his feet, should he find himself there.

Saying, "oops you slipped, or got punched and fell, or you missed stuffing that take down; sorry but it's game over for you now," doesn't sit well with me.

So is it nontraditional and blasphemous to teach basic ground fighting as part of your KF self defense class; or is this in keeping with the tradition of Shaolin in letting the art evolve; keeping what's useful and letting go of what isn't...borrowing the effective from other arts and continuing to better Shaolin?

[LFJ]

in a day and age where GF is well known, wouldn't it be in the tradition of Shaolin to bring some of these techniques into the fold?

I personally believe that if BJJ had become popular in 17th century Henan, these techs would have been trained and refined at Shaolin.

Well, no, because Shaolin does have ground fighting but with different objectives than sport. That would be even more the case in the 17th century. Trying something like BJJ would get you killed.

So is it nontraditional and blasphemous to teach basic ground fighting as part of your KF self defense class; or is this in keeping with the tradition of Shaolin in letting the art evolve; keeping what's useful and letting go of what isn't...borrowing the effective from other arts and continuing to better Shaolin?

Any Shaolin training that is conducted by someone who knows the art for combat and not just performance will include ground fighting strategy, but again, it's not a one-on-one on a mat situation feeling around for points and submissions.

[JamesC]

I think a lot of people tend to forget that "self-defense" doesn't mean you knock the other guy out or take him down etc. self defense means you escape the situation with your life and hopefully intact. You defended your life. That's the objective.

In that sense, every style should include takedown defense and basic wrestling, positioning and escaping. IMO.

[wenshu]

I know there's folks here who believe ground fighting was never trained in the Shaolin arts; I disagree with this, but we can save that conversation for another thread.

So, for the sake of discussion, assuming GF was never a part of Shaolin Kung Fu; but knowing that Shaolin has a history of incorporating other styles into its' repertoire, refining and Shaolinizing them; in a day and age where GF is well known, wouldn't it be in the tradition of Shaolin to bring some of these techniques into the fold?

I personally believe that if BJJ had become popular in 17th century Henan, these techs would have been trained and refined at Shaolin.

I'm not talking about teaching the entire BJJ curriculum and calling it SKF; but at a minimum, what's so wrong about teaching how to defend/pass in guard/mount/side control?

I feel if you profess to teach self defense and your student asks, "what happens if I end up on the ground," and you say, "don't let anyone take you down," your doing him a great disservice. Ground fighting is well known and prevalent in 2013; and at a minimum, anyone interested in self defense should know enough to defend from the ground and have a fighting chance to get back on his feet, should he find himself there.

Saying, "oops you slipped, or got punched and fell, or you missed stuffing that take down; sorry but it's game over for you now," doesn't sit well with me.

So is it nontraditional and blasphemous to teach basic ground fighting as part of your KF self defense class; or is this in keeping with the tradition of Shaolin in letting the art evolve; keeping what's useful and letting go of what isn't...borrowing the effective from other arts and continuing to better Shaolin?

train shaolin gong fu train bjj;; problem slovd

you dont need to start redefining curricula, just train it if you think its useful

lets be real, 99% of the people who walk into a school that has the words "Shaolin KungFu" on its signage just want to learn some poetically named dance moves adn won't ever have the inclination to learn how to stack up on an armbar

[YouKnowWho]

I just had a discussion with someone the other day. Is BJJ suitable to be your "primary" style? The BJJ is an excellent "supplement" system and there is no argument on that. But to be your "primary" system and you don't know kick, punch, stand up lock, stand up throw, and ground game is the only thing that you can do, it may not do you much good.

[Syn7]

Well, no, because Shaolin does have ground fighting but with different objectives than sport. That would be even more the case in the 17th century. Trying something like BJJ would get you killed.



Any Shaolin training that is conducted by someone who knows the art for combat and not just performance will include ground fighting strategy, but again, it's not a one-on-one on a mat situation feeling around for points and submissions.

How much time you are willing to spend on your back, by choice, totally depends on the situation. Believe it or not, people now and always have been in situations where they are in an isolated one on one scenario.

Also, why does everyone assume you will be on your back? You CAN use BJJ, Judo etc against multiple opponents. DO you really think a samurai who was unhorsed and mounted never thought to himself "Shit, I better get up before his friends get here". I think we all need to let go of a few assumptions. One of those should be that a monk would not see the benefit of BJJ because he always assumes multiple opponents. I mean, come one. They weren't idiots.

[Syn7]

I think a lot of people tend to forget that "self-defense" doesn't mean you knock the other guy out or take him down etc. self defense means you escape the situation with your life and hopefully intact. You defended your life. That's the objective.

In that sense, every style should include takedown defense and basic wrestling, positioning and escaping. IMO.

Word....!!! It's a lot more important than many people seem to think. versatility is key. Not in the amount of techniques you learn, but in what you can do with what you know.

[JamesC]

It doesn't even take much to learn basic positioning and movement. Add some escapes and some flow drills and teach people how to disengage. Do 15 minutes of these basic exercises during class with resisting partners and you have a basic understanding.

[bawang]

wrestling and bjj has nothing to do with self defence.

[JamesC]

wrestling and bjj has nothing to do with self defence.

I can't say for BJJ. Never done it. When I say wrestling I don't mean Greco roman wrestling.

And the ability to get someone off of you to escape DOES have something to do with self defense.

[Kellen Bassette]

train shaolin gong fu train bjj;; problem slovd

you dont need to start redefining curricula, just train it if you think its useful

This, of course, is the optimum answer; but for the student who doesn't have the time/money to train two classes, or simply doesn't want to; but is interested in self defense, not just forms...it would really benefit him to have had some training defending against ground and pound or a submission wrestler from the guard, should he ever find himself there.
If he's never been in that position before, chances of success are very low.
Some people will just find a partner and practice it if they feel they need it. (That's what I did.) Other people need an instructor to guide them, hold their hand.

[MightyB]

I'll have to point y'all to my BJJ / Judo vs Multiple Opponents thread. Do yourself a favor and watch the vid. It will be an enlightening experience.

[Kellen Bassette]

Well, no, because Shaolin does have ground fighting but with different objectives than sport. That would be even more the case in the 17th century. Trying something like BJJ would get you killed.

I'm sure it's been discussed before, I should probably just search before I post.. but then what would I talk about? lol

I'm not talking about sport fighting here. If you compete in MMA, it would behoove you to have a well developed ground game. For self defense, it's not unreasonable to assume you could end up on your back and need to be at least familiar with defending from this position.

[Kellen Bassette]

I just had a discussion with someone the other day. Is BJJ suitable to be your "primary" style? The BJJ is an excellent "supplement" system and there is no argument on that. But to be your "primary" system and you don't know kick, punch, stand up lock, stand up throw, and ground game is the only thing that you can do, it may not do you much good.

I think of it this way too. Not knocking BJJ or anything, but all fights start standing up. You need to have some stand up fighting. All the BJJ guys in MMA cross train or at least work stand up, of course.

[Kellen Bassette]

It doesn't even take much to learn basic positioning and movement. Add some escapes and some flow drills and teach people how to disengage. Do 15 minutes of these basic exercises during class with resisting partners and you have a basic understanding.

Exactly. Your not trying to create a submission champion. Your trying to make someone capable of defending from a compromised position. (Assuming his focus is standing fighting.) A grasp of the basics can make all the difference.