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Thread: Incorporating Ground Fighting in Shaolin

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    its very unrealistic. street altercations are knife or gun always.


    its very good and progressive to incorporate bjj into shaolin kung fu, but neither is about self defence.
    Well just like judo, BJJ used to be but like judo once most schools became more concerned with sport that went out the window. And I'll assume the first bit is your usual sense of humour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    I’ve sent a lot of overzealous men down to their knees with that... watch the wonderful reaction/whimper you’ll get from that person.

    The ‘ginger fist’ really works.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    its very unrealistic. street altercations are knife or gun always.


    its very good and progressive to incorporate bjj into shaolin kung fu, but neither is about self defence.
    Really?

    Two miles from my house a guy was beaten to death just last week. With someones fist. No weapons involved.

    And I live in rural Arkansas. There are no knife laws in our state and everyone here has a gun of some kind.
    Last edited by JamesC; 01-01-2013 at 11:48 PM.
    It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    its very unrealistic. street altercations are knife or gun always.
    Horse Donk. I've seen ridiculous amounts of empty handed street fights. I've used my TMAs in some and I've seen others do the same.

    That being said, I would always avoid them if possible, because of the possibility of a weapon, just ain't worth it.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    I totally disagreee that wrestling does NOT have great self defense value. So much so that I don't even feel like I need to explain why. It should be obvious, IMO.
    Of course wrestling and JJ are valuable for self defense as well...but I think I get where Bawang was coming from with that...sport arts aren't designed for self defense, they tend to be used offensively, but of course it can be used to help defend yourself as well.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    BJJ for sport and BJJ for self defence are approached slightly differently. Also JJJ is quite different but still good. Judo is a diff beast, but very effective against multiple opponents.

    Personally I have one primary striking style and one primary grappling style and I try to make them work with eachother and supplement with other arts I come across that fascinate me. Like Bak Mei. I would never fight like that. But I would mos def use a lot of it in combination with my more muay thai style. And the rooting and floating are great add ons to both muay thai and wrestling. Wrestling is just natural for me cause I did it all through elementary and high school. Very handy indeed.

    I find the bridging is very helpful in transition from striking to grappling while staying free enough to switch between the two on demand, when possible. Chinna, while somewhat counterintuitive to me, I also find quite helpful in learning different grips and such.
    This is how a fighter approaches things, to my way of thinking anyhow. You see the useful application, don't get confused by the veneer and apply it within your own style.

    I think rooting is a very valuable, and often overlooked asset of TCMA. I would say sport sanshou has shown how well wrestling and TCMA compliment each other, seamlessly really.

    When I roll, a lot of times I can tap someone with a simple Chinna wrist lock. I don't seem to see many BJJ guys go for the wrist, I just took it from KF/Karate self defense and apply it on the ground. I think a lot of what you learn in Chinna applies directly to ground fighting if you learn the mechanics of not allowing space, weight distribution, passing guards, ect..in fact it essentially is BJJ when you add those fundamentals.

    As to Chinna when your standing up, I think a lot of folks got the wrong idea. You always see overly complicated self defense situations, where your dependent on your compliant partner leaving his arm extended and not moving while you go through 2 or 3 different steps. It's just not practical.

    I don't think most Chinna is meant for stand up fighting. Chinna works beautifully, we see it used all the time by bouncers, police, military, ect. I think that's what it's really for. Diffusing a situation, apprehending and controlling someone. Once the guard is up and fists are flying, the time for "self defense" Chinna has passed.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    That being said, I would always avoid them if possible, because of the possibility of a weapon, just ain't worth it.
    All the more reason not to take someone to the ground, or to stay on the ground feeling around for position and locks if taken there.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Ask yourself this; how would 17th century Shaolin monks have gone about incorporating it? They would have gone out and found a teacher or invited one to come to them. They still do this today, I've heard stories from my Shaolin coach of hiking for three hours every day just to learn an arcane form from an obscure village master.

    If you have a school hire a coach to teach your guys. Either way they're going to have to pay more, either in the inflated prices of your classes to cover the new hire or when they go out to learn at another school.
    I don't disagree with any of this. I'm really just talking about learning the fundamentals of escaping/defending in ground fighting. I think a small amount of time focused on this, could really help someone who has no experience be much more well rounded. If they want to pursue it further they should go learn from a grappling coach.

    Say your teaching a little Chi Gong before your self/defense/forms/sparring, whatever..you feel it's good and beneficial to your students. Most of them may be happy, but one wants more...you can tell him, "I studied these few exercises, but Chi Gong isn't my specialty, if you want to study it in more depth go train with an internal teacher...I teach this along with the external KF because I think it helps; but it's not my area of expertise."

    I would actually have more respect for a Shifu if he told me this.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    All the more reason not to take someone to the ground, or to stay on the ground feeling around for position and locks if taken there.
    100% agree, but the guy who picked a fight with you that trains at the local MMA gym or was a high school wrestler may not think the same.

  9. #39
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    Let him pick a fight with the wrong guy and get killed then because he thinks wrestling is for street.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Let him pick a fight with the wrong guy and get killed then because he thinks wrestling is for street.
    It certainly can happen.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    It certainly can happen.
    Don't encourage him Kellen. He's just teh deadly.
    It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    All the more reason not to take someone to the ground, or to stay on the ground feeling around for position and locks if taken there.
    yeah but if you have no ground training and somebody does put you on your back, you are fucked!

    There is no more helpless feeling than being shut down by a high level grappler. It it doesn't have to be on the ground. I'm not a ground fighter, I'm a grappler. I will push them into a wall, tie them up and drive my knees thru their torso with savage brutality until they drop or pull their hands down, then they are my bitch.

    It's not about stand vs ground. It's about using grappling and striking from any and all positions. Not knowing how to defend a position is fatal. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a standup cat talk shit then get power slammed on the concrete and not even have the wherewithal to pull their head in. Sometimes knowing something is about being able to defend against it just as much as it is about using it offensively.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    It certainly can happen.
    It goes both ways. This is why knowing both is always better than one.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesC View Post
    Don't encourage him Kellen. He's just teh deadly.
    Quite apparent.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post

    It's not about stand vs ground. It's about using grappling and striking from any and all positions. Not knowing how to defend a position is fatal.
    That's the truth of it. If there's one position your completely helpless in; than it's all over for you when you find yourself there. I just don't want to take that chance.

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