Some guys have talent in form

[GeneChing]

I have found that, while not all good forms people are good fighters, that all good fighters CAN be good forms people.

I have to differ on this point. I know plenty of good fighters who can't do a form to save their life. Remember Dancing Chuck? Ok, that's not the best example , but I don't think you can generalize one way or the other on this. Some good forms people make good fighters and some good fighters make good forms people. Some are too specialized to be able to cross train that way. Different strokes, or in this case strikes, for different folks.

[Jimbo]

I have to differ on this point. I know plenty of good fighters who can't do a form to save their life. Remember Dancing Chuck? Ok, that's not the best example , but I don't think you can generalize one way or the other on this. Some good forms people make good fighters and some good fighters make good forms people. Some are too specialized to be able to cross train that way. Different strokes, or in this case strikes, for different folks.

Gotta agree with Gene on this.

There are tons of good fighters who can't do a decent form, and would probably have extreme difficulty trying to learn how to. For example, over the years, I knew at least a couple different guys who were very awkward/sloppy, but who were very effective fighters. Neither one was ever able to do a form well, even a simple one. Another guy was a very good kickboxer with good fighting form, but he simply could not do a form very well (mental block?). They are just two completely different activities.

OTOH, most of the CMA guys I've known who could fight really well, also happened to be good at their forms. I don't think it's because of their forms, but because they wanted to become good at both. Plus, they had the dual talent for each aspect.

[Syn7]

This guy's forms is very pleasant to watch. What else do you expect from a good form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85tdZYkMQWI

If you still train forms, what do you think about his form?

I could live without the Roland sample package. I hate it when I can identify which percussive package is being used. You need to get creative with that shit, rock out some plugins and make it your own.

[GeneChing]

They are just two completely different activities.

Actually, I only have contention with this sentence. Form and fighting can be completely different activities, but they can be one and the same too. Dare I say that the real masters master both? Or perhaps for real masters, there is just no distinction.

I suck at both, but maybe sanjuro_ronin can chime in again, as he says he's had success at both.

[Syn7]

Actually, I only have contention with this sentence. Form and fighting can be completely different activities, but they can be one and the same too. Dare I say that the real masters master both? Or perhaps for real masters, there is just no distinction.

I suck at both, but maybe sanjuro_ronin can chime in again, as he says he's had success at both.

Define "master? then we can talk about who is and isn't and what it takes to get there.

I always thought of it as resting on your laurels. Otherwise when others call you master you will say "No, no. I am forever a student". No?

[RenDaHai]

Or perhaps for real masters, there is just no distinction.

I think you hit on something here Gene. I like that. I think in a great many things form and function peak together.

[GeneChing]

Define "master? then we can talk about who is and isn't and what it takes to get there.

I always thought of it as resting on your laurels. Otherwise when others call you master you will say "No, no. I am forever a student". No?

That's a fair question as 'master' is even harder to define than 'haymaker'. I can see where you might draw the 'resting on your laurels' conclusion, given how some self-proclaimed masters behave (ironically, 'resting on your laurels' comes from ancient Greece - former champions were allowed to do so, but only for one year following their victory, not for the rest of their lives). To master something means to have complete knowledge, which of course, begs another question, what defines 'complete'? But take this quote from the Venerable Chan Grandmaster Hua into consideration. He once said, "Education has neither a beginning nor an end. School is wherever we go." Personally, I've always sought out masters that maintained a vital practice, and you can't do that while resting on laurel leaves.

[Robinhood]

A form is just a pre arranged set of movements designed to build coordination along with body conditioning, to be able to control your body could lead to better application of beginning martial arts training at body level mechanics.

Most forms also contain efficient application of martial techniques or movements all strung together in one continuous set of movement's which leads to meaningless application of said movements for practical application, but can be referenced in future learning of proper application of that style, from that form.

[Jimbo]

Actually, I only have contention with this sentence. Form and fighting can be completely different activities, but they can be one and the same too. Dare I say that the real masters master both? Or perhaps for real masters, there is just no distinction.

I suck at both, but maybe sanjuro_ronin can chime in again, as he says he's had success at both.

Actually, let me clarify.

I liken forms to a series of pre-set paragraphs, or better yet, to monologues, as you will sometimes find in audition material for actors. Whereas free-sparring would be like an actual debate with another person. The pre-set paragraphs can definitely aid in laying a foundation for debates. They can help with memory, diction, expression, etc., in a specific language in a predictable, idealized manner that you can practice alone, and make it uniquely your own. Although there can be carry-over, practicing monologues isn't the same as debating.

Using acting again as an analogy, some people excel at performing monologues, but they aren't playing off of or reacting to another actor. In that sense, it's not "alive", regardless of how well-done it is.

So perhaps I was off by saying 'completely different', as in totally unrelated, but I feel that the differences are considerable. I hope that came across in the right way.

Of course, if you're a MAist, you may prefer one aspect over the other, but IMO, ideally, you would work to understand as many aspects of your art as you can. Many forms do contain important concepts that can be extracted, drilled hard with partners, and applied, as well as enhancing overall movement, coordination, etc.

[Syn7]

That's a fair question as 'master' is even harder to define than 'haymaker'. I can see where you might draw the 'resting on your laurels' conclusion, given how some self-proclaimed masters behave (ironically, 'resting on your laurels' comes from ancient Greece - former champions were allowed to do so, but only for one year following their victory, not for the rest of their lives). To master something means to have complete knowledge, which of course, begs another question, what defines 'complete'? But take this quote from the Venerable Chan Grandmaster Hua into consideration. He once said, "Education has neither a beginning nor an end. School is wherever we go." Personally, I've always sought out masters that maintained a vital practice, and you can't do that while resting on laurel leaves.

Word to your moms....!!!


Another thoughtful Gene Ching installment.

I have had people come up to me and say I'm so good at something. I never just take the compliment, I can't help it. The more I learn anything, the more I realize one lifetime simply isn't enough. I mean I still gotta make money get laid and raise babies somewhere in there too.


The only way you will see revolutionary beside my name is maybe long after I'm dead or if I was standing on a pile of bodies!
Honestly, I'm so content to do me and just enjoy life with my fam. No time for any of this master shit.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, I only have contention with this sentence. Form and fighting can be completely different activities, but they can be one and the same too. Dare I say that the real masters master both? Or perhaps for real masters, there is just no distinction.

I suck at both, but maybe sanjuro_ronin can chime in again, as he says he's had success at both.

I should have qualififed that I was referring to TMA of course.
Systems that don't do forms are different of course.
But, look at an elite boxer, more often than not, his shadowboxing will have picture perfect form, but that isn't really the same thing.
What I meant was that, in the TMA that use both forms and fighting, I have found that the best fighters were also very good at forms and that didn't always translate in the reverse.
Maybe it was just me...
I got first place in BB forms in the N.American ITF TKD championships back in the late 80's.
I got first place in BB forms in a couple of Kyokushin competitions.
Just to name a couple.
My instructors tended to advocate forms though, they believed that good form = good fighting skills, of course they never taught flashy forms so...

[RenDaHai]

But, look at an elite boxer, more often than not, his shadowboxing will have picture perfect form, but that isn't really the same thing.

I agree, but I think it IS the same thing.

The difference between throwing a punch at a face, or a bag, or the air exists only in your mind. Your body should follow the same script.

Watch a K.O in any pro fight. Watch the form, do you have the ability to do the same move? Of course. I have rarely seen a move in a fight that I am incapable of performing just as well. But could I USE it? Not necessarily. Because once you are past the hurdle of physical skill, function exists only in the mind. In its ability to determine when to use a technique and how and most importantly to do it without doubt or hesitation.

But this element of the mind is somewhat intangible.... It comes part from experience sure, but there are so many factors that effect the mind and are dependant on the situation. And a difficult situation is quite by definition one that we are not experienced with, otherwise it would be routine.

SO how do we train for this difficult situation? Well, for some things we can never prepare. And sometimes the time spent trying is wasted. Time spent on form and condition however, is never wasted. That is the trainable element. The tangible element. The predictable element.

The disciple will train his body through hard work and strengthen his mind through contemplation. As a weapon the two are only useful together like a gun and a bullet.

So I think someone who trains Kung Fu should strive for mastery of form and of function. But once he has mastered his own mind he will no longer need to distinguish between the two, like Gene observed.

[Golden Arms]

In Short Fist Boxing, the forms are done just as the fighting is done. The way the moves are used correspond with combinations that come out under pressure. To me that is how martial arts should be done.

[Jimbo]

I agree, but I think it IS the same thing.

The difference between throwing a punch at a face, or a bag, or the air exists only in your mind. Your body should follow the same script.

Watch a K.O in any pro fight. Watch the form, do you have the ability to do the same move? Of course. I have rarely seen a move in a fight that I am incapable of performing just as well. But could I USE it? Not necessarily. Because once you are past the hurdle of physical skill, function exists only in the mind. In its ability to determine when to use a technique and how and most importantly to do it without doubt or hesitation.

But this element of the mind is somewhat intangible.... It comes part from experience sure, but there are so many factors that effect the mind and are dependant on the situation. And a difficult situation is quite by definition one that we are not experienced with, otherwise it would be routine.

SO how do we train for this difficult situation? Well, for some things we can never prepare. And sometimes the time spent trying is wasted. Time spent on form and condition however, is never wasted. That is the trainable element. The tangible element. The predictable element.

The disciple will train his body through hard work and strengthen his mind through contemplation. As a weapon the two are only useful together like a gun and a bullet.

So I think someone who trains Kung Fu should strive for mastery of form and of function. But once he has mastered his own mind he will no longer need to distinguish between the two, like Gene observed.

After reading this post, and on further reflection, this does indeed make a lot of sense. For a MAist, there are many things that are outside of your control in regards to opponents, situations, etc. But among of the factors that ARE within your control are form and conditioning.

And I do believe the mind plays a very big role. Cultivating a mind of non-attachment, etc., beyond the mere intellectual concept of it. Which is MUCH easier said than done.

[GeneChing]

But, look at an elite boxer, more often than not, his shadowboxing will have picture perfect form, but that isn't really the same thing.

I agree, but I think it IS the same thing.

I agree with both of your explanations and clarifications, but I'm snipping these two quotes just to make a point (and not to troll, which is the more common way to snip quotes out of context, right? ). To use the old SAT analogy structure, shadowboxing: forms; jazz: classical. There's a huge difference between shadowboxing and forms practice from a pedagogical standpoint, and that's significant as 'how to best train' is the key question on all our minds. On the highest levels, just like with jazz and classical, it's just music. For example, look how often the Marsalis Brothers play classical. In the martial arts, or any art for that matter, it can be the same. However, like classical, TMA forms are a laborious process, laden with the cultural baggage we call tradition. In today's fast food nation, tradition is becoming more devalued, but there in lies the root of our culture, the logic that underpins our thinking.

Aww shoot. I just got interrupted by work and forgot where I was going with that.