Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks

[pazman]

Would it be more proper to call Chinese monks, non-Indian monks?

If the last guy isn't Buddhist, why did he dress as a Buddhist for Halloween? He even has a Buddhist name.

[pazman]

One time for Halloween, I dressed in a monk costume I got from China. My two friends dressed as Monkey and Pig. We got really drunk and had a good time.

[GeneChing]

Interesting thread topic, HmorenoM. In regards to this subject, technically speaking, to be considered as a fully-ordained Shaolin Monk, you must have the Abbot's blessing, as by definition, that officially signifies acceptance by the monastic brotherhood of Shaolin today. There are many of us Shaolin Disciples that have called themselves 'monks' (I have called myself the real 'fake' monk, but only in jest). I have asked the Abbot directly about how many laowai have been officially ordained, and he is always very diplomatic about the answer. I haven't asked him about it in a while as it's a waste of a question.

Note that there is a difference between 'Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks' and 'Non-Chinese Buddhist Monks'. There are plenty of the latter.

Here are two previous relevant threads:
Yanfan (Franco Testini)
(note also The First American Branded at Shaolin Temple By Melissa Leon-Guerrero in our Shaolin Special 2007)

Matthew Ahmet

[LFJ]

They are not monks (at least by these ceremonies).

The difficulty is that Shaolin is one of the few Chinese traditions that give secular disciples monastic names, whereas usually the Shi family name (short for the Chinese transliteration of Śākyamuni) is reserved for the fully ordained. Secular disciples often have a separate generational naming scheme, but in Shaolin it is the same as the fully ordained.

But looking at the ceremonies;

First of all, one monk alone cannot perform the ordination ceremony for another like this. It takes 10 fully ordained monks, i.e. "3 teachers and 7 witnesses" (三师七证).

The three teachers include the "preceptor" who confers the precepts, the "chairman" who recites description of the ceremony, and the "instructor" who teaches the ceremonial manner.

The seven witnesses attest to the ordination, that it was valid and conducted properly. At least seven monks are required, unless in distant locations where it is not possible, in which case at least two witnesses are required.

In the first video the initiate did not even learn to perform a proper prostration. If this were a full ordination ceremony with all required attendees, it was still not conducted properly and thus null and void.

To confirm anyone's ordination you may simply ask for names of their 3 teachers and 7 witnesses. They should have a copy of this on their official certificate of ordination. Otherwise, as secular disciples what they will have is a refuge certificate like the first guy was given that will just name their refuge master.

[HmorenoM]

Wow... thanks for the answers, and well, i didn't ask for being racist :/ it was just for curiosity, i'm just asking to people that i know that knows more than i do. And thanks again, LFJ, Gene, Ren...

[Syn7]

Wow... thanks for the answers, and well, i didn't ask for being racist :/ it was just for curiosity, i'm just asking to people that i know that knows more than i do. And thanks again, LFJ, Gene, Ren...

I don't think you asked because you are racist. I'm just sayin', it kinda is. I don't believe that was your intent and you get a pass. No worries, lol.

Race has nothing to do with being a monk. If it did, they wouldn't be true to their philosophy. Hence, not real monks. Regardless of what they say and wear. You live it or you don't. Everything else is irrelevant.

[Bacon]

I don't think it's racist at all. For example you can't be a Hindu convert. It's by birth only. I understand why the question came to light as it did in his mind.

[Syn7]

I don't think it's racist at all. For example you can't be a Hindu convert. It's by birth only. I understand why the question came to light as it did in his mind.

Irrelevant. These are Buddhist monks we're talking about. If you believe your vows and actually follow them, race shouldn't be an issue. Apples and oranges, man.

And if your vows happen to be exclusionary, you're a dick pushing along a dick tradition.

[LFJ]

Did the OP actually question that these folks were monks due to being non-Chinese? It appears he assumed they were in fact monks and simply asked what others' opinions on them were, perhaps because they are not so common in Shaolin? It wasn't really a clear question, but I didn't detect anything racist about it.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's it! Unlock the racism thread!

[HmorenoM]

Did the OP actually question that these folks were monks due to being non-Chinese? It appears he assumed they were in fact monks and simply asked what others' opinions on them were, perhaps because they are not so common in Shaolin? It wasn't really a clear question, but I didn't detect anything racist about it.

Exactly.
I just was around the internet, i found that and attracted my attention, then i said "hey, why not asking about this" as i said before, i'm just asking to people that i know that knows more than i do... I didn't want to offend or being racist... i'm training in Walter Zuazo's school since yesterday... Forgive me for being curious.

Thank you

[RenDaHai]

... I didn't want to offend or being racist...

Don't worry buddy. There is absolutely ZERO racism in what you said. The fact it was mentioned is part of what is wrong with the world today. People call racism far too quickly. The person who perceives racism when its not there, he is the racist.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think it's racist at all. For example you can't be a Hindu convert. It's by birth only. I understand why the question came to light as it did in his mind.

This isn't exactly true. Some Hindus believe this and others do not.
There are in the meantime many converts to Hinduism.

[GeneChing]

These are Buddhist monks we're talking about. If you believe your vows and actually follow them, race shouldn't be an issue. Apples and oranges, man.

The number of non-Chinese Buddhist monks is innumerable. The number of non-Chinese Shaolin monks is very low, if any, but this is just because Shaolin has only been open for laowai for a few decades. I've spoken to the Abbot about this, and like I said, he's very diplomatic publicly. He is totally open to non-Chinese Shaolin monks. In fact, he encourages it (at least when talking to me) but he stipulates that such person must meet the criteria just like any other Shaolin Monk candidate. In due time, the Abbot feels non-Chinese Shaolin monks are inevitable.

LFJ is spot on with his comment below:

The difficulty is that Shaolin is one of the few Chinese traditions that give secular disciples monastic names, whereas usually the Shi family name (short for the Chinese transliteration of Śākyamuni) is reserved for the fully ordained. Secular disciples often have a separate generational naming scheme, but in Shaolin it is the same as the fully ordained.

The issue of wuseng and biaoyanseng, which we've discussed here and in our Shaolin Specials ad nauseum, complicates what officially defines a Shaolin Monk. It's worthy of note that Shaolin is now holding large indoctrination ceremonies. See the article I posted above:

The First American Branded at Shaolin Temple By Melissa Leon-Guerrero (Shaolin Special 2007)

[Matthew]

To become a monk is to throw away your old life in exchange for a new one.

It shouldn't be done by those with something to throw away - but for those who are already at the entrance of the temple, or those who are already capable of leaving home without baggage to 'throw away.'

What you are saying is more common in southeastern asian countries (e.g. Laos, Thailand), where layfolk are encouraged to spend part of their young life as a monk to see if it is right for them (and to appreciate the sangha among other reasons) and if it is, they will throw away anything they have collected. Even if they only end up trying it for a week, month, etc.