Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks

[Syn7]

Our merit questioning is color-blind. Just read the archives here. That being said, I see your point now. I imagine that a lot of the questioning arises from the fact that there are so few non-Chinese 'official' Shaolin monks, if any, so the poseurs really stick out. There are plenty of fake Chinese Shaolin monks, but they don't stick out nearly as much. That's sort of contrapositive racism.

No, I hear you. And people like Ren. I could have been more clear in the first place and that was my bad, for sure. I just don't like the way we(most of us) think when it comes to differences. You raise a black kid in a white family completely segregated from other black people, his only difference from his peers will only be physical. To an extent anyways. There are genetic factors, but for the sake of this convo, let's not open that can right now. After, sure. But it will just muddy the waters right now. Our differences are cultural, not racial. IMO even looking at race in this global community we have now is just ridiculous and is a remnant of horrible systemic racism in our respective cultures. Learned behaviour has very very little to do with your race. Aside from like a reaction to being judged based on race. Then of course it does affect you. Again, separate issue tho.

[pazman]

For some reason I thought the thread was titled something else when I posted earlier. Oh well.

In any case, this thread bring up couple of interesting points:

1) Buddhism is not bound to culture and the Buddhism we have today was influenced by not only Indian thought, but also by the Persians, Greeks, etc. Buddhism is more similar to Christianity than Judaism or Hinduism in this regard. There are real converts to Judaism and Hinduism, but they are exceptions, not the norm.

2) I'm not sure if it is even possible for foreigners to become monks in China. You can study Buddhism, for sure, but you can't get a visa to stay in a monastery. China is not really a place for foreigners to live out the rest of their lives.

[DamoY2K]

Hi, I'm new here but I've been interested in Shaolin for a long while!

I live in Europe and there are several legit non chinese Shaolin disciples / monks here:

Shi Xing Mi (Walter Gjergja) disciple of Shi De Yang - www.shaolinwuseng.com (Italy and Switzerland)

Shi Xing Cang (Valter Carboni) disciple of Shi De Yang - www.culturashaolin.it (Italy)

Shi Yan Wu (Matthew Ahmet) disciple of Shi Yong Xin - www.shaolin-warriors.co.uk (England)

Shi Yan Mai (Dominique Saanetang) disciple of Shi Yong Xin - www.saatenang.com (France and Belgium)

Shi Miao Dian (Chris Kouris) disciple of Shi Heng Jun - www.chanwushaolin.org.gr (Greece)

These non chinese disciples / monks are the ones recognized also by the Shaolin Europe Association, the european authority of the temple, as official representatives of Shaolin within their respective schools / cities.

There are a few more non chinese disciples / monks with apparently legit backgrounds but I don't remember the names, I think one in Russia another one or two in Greece and perhaps one more in the UK ..… it's difficult to keep track. Then there are lots (30 - 40) non chinese and also some chinese "Shaolin monks" with various "pseudo credentials", "purchased titles", "distorted curriculums" or simply "self proclaimed" ..…

[Kellen Bassette]

Oh, and you can hardly put what I said next to people using reverse racism for political agendas.

There is no such thing as "reverse racism." The assumption is beyond absurd. It is just racism.

Nobody here would ever call me PC You should know this by now.

Kellen, that's not all directed toward you. I just used your post as a jump off. You should know which parts are for you.

I don't think you are the least bit PC. Your comments left an opening for my jumping off point as well, so I jumped. It's an argument I make whenever there is an opportunity, that's all.

I'm not a racist, but I am an opportunist.

[LFJ]

Hi, I'm new here but I've been interested in Shaolin for a long while!

I live in Europe and there are several legit non chinese Shaolin disciples / monks here:

Shi Xing Mi (Walter Gjergja) disciple of Shi De Yang - www.shaolinwuseng.com (Italy and Switzerland)

Shi Xing Cang (Valter Carboni) disciple of Shi De Yang - www.culturashaolin.it (Italy)

Shi Yan Wu (Matthew Ahmet) disciple of Shi Yong Xin - www.shaolin-warriors.co.uk (England)

Shi Yan Mai (Dominique Saanetang) disciple of Shi Yong Xin - www.saatenang.com (France and Belgium)

Shi Miao Dian (Chris Kouris) disciple of Shi Heng Jun - www.chanwushaolin.org.gr (Greece)

These non chinese disciples / monks are the ones recognized also by the Shaolin Europe Association, the european authority of the temple, as official representatives of Shaolin within their respective schools / cities.

There are a few more non chinese disciples / monks with apparently legit backgrounds but I don't remember the names, I think one in Russia another one or two in Greece and perhaps one more in the UK ..… it's difficult to keep track. Then there are lots (30 - 40) non chinese and also some chinese "Shaolin monks" with various "pseudo credentials", "purchased titles", "distorted curriculums" or simply "self proclaimed" ..…

Just to be clear, they shouldn't be called disciples / monks as if they are the same thing. To my knowledge, none of the above are fully ordained monks, but are secular disciples which is a very common thing. There are literally thousands of non Chinese Shaolin disciples all over the world. None of them are monks, however.

[Syn7]

There is no such thing as "reverse racism." The assumption is beyond absurd. It is just racism.



I don't think you are the least bit PC. Your comments left an opening for my jumping off point as well, so I jumped. It's an argument I make whenever there is an opportunity, that's all.

I'm not a racist, but I am an opportunist.

Word.

Exploit that shit!

I find the whole reverse thing kinda funny. Race arguments manifest in strange ways sometimes. The best is the white guys, that had every opportunity in the world, that get super pissed off when a working class person of color gets a job they wanted. People just suck in general.

I can tell you one thing I never am is truly bored.

[Kellen Bassette]

I can tell you one thing I never am is truly bored.

Never being bored is a great way to live life...there's just to much to do/see/say...

[DamoY2K]

Hi LFJ, I think things are a little more "gray" than that, for exemple all the people above are secular disciples but also had formal "wuseng" ceremonies inside Shaolin temple with the right number of "monk witnesses" and they are recognized as wuseng by the temple authorities .... so what are they?

I think the line between disciples / warrior monks / teacher monks is become far more blurred than you think. Certainly they are not Wenseng if that's what you mean, but who is today in Shaolin .....

[LFJ]

Hi LFJ, I think things are a little more "gray" than that, for exemple all the people above are secular disciples but also had formal "wuseng" ceremonies inside Shaolin temple with the right number of "monk witnesses" and they are recognized as wuseng by the temple authorities .... so what are they?

Wuseng and Sujiadizi are practically the same, taking the same secular level of precepts. Yet the Wuseng differ in that they are also "Chujia" dizi, meaning they have "left home" and are considered monastic members of the sangha ("seng"jia).

The folks you listed are Sujiadizi, meaning they have not left home (chujia) to live in the monastery. You could call them Wushu dizi, but they are not actually Wu"seng" because they don't live monastic lives.

I think the line between disciples / warrior monks / teacher monks is become far more blurred than you think. Certainly they are not Wenseng if that's what you mean, but who is today in Shaolin .....

It's really not that complicated, as there are clear provision for becoming each, and actually 2/3 of the monastic community in Shaolin are fully ordained Hesheng.

[LFJ]

all the people above are secular disciples but also had formal "wuseng" ceremonies inside Shaolin temple with the right number of "monk witnesses" and they are recognized as wuseng by the temple authorities .... so what are they?

The "3 teachers & 7 witnesses" are required for full ordinations. Secular level precept ceremonies (sujiadizi or wuseng) can be conducted by just the one master. Whoever was there were spectators.

I think some of these folks have not fully understood the implications of the ceremonies they underwent. In many cases it's due to a language barrier and/or poor interpretors who themselves aren't totally clear.

[DamoY2K]

Hi LFJ, thanks for your very informative clarification although to me in a way it further confirms the "grayness" today ..... the "Wudizi" name you jokingly use says it all ..... I think the wuseng vs official Shaolin temple sanctioned sujiadizi vs all the other presumed sujiadizi (non chinese and also chinese) situation is not so black and white IMO.

For example I've seen photos and videos of a few ceremonies (see links posted before) held in the Shaolin temple itself with the appropriate number of teachers and witnesses, where the disciples are subsequently also recognized by the temple as official representatives (directors of authorized Shaolin cultural centers etc). So a wuseng-type ceremony followed by wuseng-type recognition but with secular lives ..... a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps .....

Then you get former chinese wuseng who are still classified as wuseng by the temple and by themselves, but have been living secular lives for a long time. Where do they truly fit, in tradition but also in perception ..... perception is reality to whom perceives it.

IMO today if you are officially recognized as a teacher / master representing the temple + have undergone a wuseng-type discipleship ceremony in the temple + have studied in Shaolin becoming disciple of a legitimate Shaolin temple master = then you are for all intents and purposes a Shaolin wuseng ..... although technically perhaps not fully ..... but as far as I know Shaolin has always been a rather "gray" place when it comes to who is "in" or "out" or somewhere in between.

Anyway ultimately competences and conduct should speak louder than names and titles!

[LFJ]

the "Wudizi" name you jokingly use says it all

I wasn't joking. They can be called Wushu dizi. Part of their ceremony is martial discipleship.

For example I've seen photos and videos of a few ceremonies (see links posted before) held in the Shaolin temple itself with the appropriate number of teachers and witnesses, where the disciples are subsequently also recognized by the temple as official representatives (directors of authorized Shaolin cultural centers etc). So a wuseng-type ceremony followed by wuseng-type recognition but with secular lives ..... a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps .....

A "wuseng-type ceremony" is just a secular Buddhist/martial discipleship ceremony for someone who lives a monastic life and takes slightly more precepts than regular sujiadizi. No appropriate number of teachers and witnesses are required as it is secular. You can be secular and run a center. You only need full ordination to run a monastery as an abbot.

Then you get former chinese wuseng who are still classified as wuseng by the temple and by themselves, but have been living secular lives for a long time.

They are usually and technically considered "former" wuseng, but may just keep the title. Not living monastic lives and holding only the 5 lay precepts though, they are just sujiadizi like any other.

Anyway ultimately competences and conduct should speak louder than names and titles!

Right on!

[bawang]

i wish one day shaolin temple will have monk soldiers again.

[GeneChing]

The real rub is the term 'monk'. What LFJ is defining is a bhikṣu, which is a very specific title for a Buddhist monk. Now here's the rub. While a Shaolin monk is, technically speaking, a Buddhist monk, there's this huge grey zone with the wuseng and biaoyanseng. Technically speaking, as LFJ points out, these classes of adherents are actually just secular disciples, not fully ordained bhikṣu. However, the definition of 'monk' is merely a male member of a monastic order. It is not bound by the tenets of Buddhism. It is a multicultural term. Out in the world at large, the wuseng and biaoyanseng are called Shaolin monks, even though they are not bhikṣu. So where does that leave the Shaolin order? And more specific to this discussion, where does that leave the non-Chinese Shaolin disicples? Heck, I'm a sujiadizi and I've performed kung fu at Shaolin for tourists. Can I start calling myself a Shaolin monk?*

This situation only really exists at Shaolin. Shaolin is very unique obviously.


*Actually I call myself the 'real fake monk' sometimes, mostly in honor of this situation.

[DamoY2K]

The real rub is the term 'monk' ... as LFJ points out, these classes of adherents are actually just secular disciples, not fully ordained bhikṣu ... however, the definition of 'monk' is merely a male member of a monastic order ... out in the world at large, the wuseng and biaoyanseng are called Shaolin monks, even though they are not bhikṣu ... Shaolin is very unique ...

Totally agree!