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Thread: Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamoY2K View Post
    For example I've seen photos and videos of a few ceremonies (see links posted before) held in the Shaolin temple itself with the appropriate number of teachers and witnesses, where the disciples are subsequently also recognized by the temple as official representatives (directors of authorized Shaolin cultural centers etc). So a wuseng-type ceremony followed by wuseng-type recognition but with secular lives ..... a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps .....
    Where I'm from that is just a license to be an obese famewhore with a reputation for trying to take advantage of female students.

  2. #62
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    Where are you from again, wenshu?

    ...because my discipleship ceremony was within Shaolin Temple. Granted, there were only two Shaolin monks present (and one, my master, was a wuseng) and only two other witnesses (one was my shidi, who was indoctrinated right after me), but those female students don't need to know that, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by DamoY2K View Post
    a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps
    The wuseng class is fairly unique to Shaolin and is already 'hybrid'.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Where are you from again, wenshu?...because my discipleship ceremony was within Shaolin Temple.
    non fa niente

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    i wish one day shaolin temple will have monk soldiers again.
    Wait for the USA to finish negotiating the final details of their new Henan Military base.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    However, the definition of 'monk' is merely a male member of a monastic order.
    And Sujiadizi are not members of the monastic order because by definition (Sujia) they haven't left home (Chujia) to live monastic lives. Wuseng are considered Chujiadizi. They are monastic members, yet their level of precept is still secular.

    It is not bound by the tenets of Buddhism. It is a multicultural term.
    I don't know. In Buddhist context, a monk is a very specific position. You can talk about whatever the term means in whatever language and culture, but in Buddhist context, even in Shaolin, a monk is specific although there are uniquely different classes. If you haven't taken full precepts in a proper ordination as a Heshang, or don't at least live a monastic life as a Wuseng, you aren't a monk by any stretch.

    A Sujiadizi or former Wuseng living at home with wife and child... not a monk.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I think if you have already dealt with your 'baggage' then there is no need to become a monk. You are already past that stage. You can move straight on to the personal contemplation of a hermit. Becoming a monk is to give you that opportunity to shed this baggage.

    Amongst my older teachers they say there is nothing to revere about monks. In times past monks were most often criminals, disgraced officials/officers/soldiers, orphans, bastards etc. and more rarely those seeking spirituality. Temples offered some form of legal sanctuary. The renown of Shaolin perhaps made it special though.
    Sheng Yen writes about these attitudes. One of the reasons he made an effort to earn advanced degrees and encouraged his students to do the same was to try to improve the image of monks, at least in Taiwan. I believe he succeeded with that to a great extent.

    Even among people from other Buddhist countries (such as Sri Lanka) you can hear people say that maybe only about 10% of monks are truly serious about devoting their life to the Dharma.

    However I think it's worth considering that even historically there has been a great deal of reverence for true monks in Japan and China.

    The problem has been just as much one of ignorant laypeople, who aren't interested in the Dharma and just want to employ a guy in a robe to chant at a funeral and things like that.

  7. #67
    This might be interesting in the context of this thread's sub-topic of what it means to be a monk.

    Sheng Yen and Jet Li interviewed on Chinese TV.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y1VyJbsuss

  8. #68
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    Again LFJ, that is technically correct...

    ...but this is Shaolin we're talking about, and given Shaolin's history over the last few decades, what defines the monastic order has been loose. The abbot is trying to change that, trying to revert to these original precepts, but the problem is that many of the wuseng were defined as 'monk' during Shaolin's less 'official' years. Many of them still are defined as such by pop culture. While the abbot is trying to make change, trying to re-establish the Buddhism at Shaolin, those wuseng have made tremendous contributions to the propagation of Shaolin today and can't be just written off on this technicality, at least not quite yet. Give it a few more years perhaps.

    That being said, what defines a Shaolin monk is more dubious than what is defined by Buddhism, and muddled even more so by the biaoyanseng and all the performance tours. This brings us back to the original question of non-Chinese Shaolin monks as many disciples are opening schools and doing performances. And their English/French/Italian or whatever language is better, so the media tends to pick up more about what they claim over what someone who was actually raised at Shaolin might say. It's all very bothersome, but I feel that it's getting cleared up, bit by bit.
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  9. #69
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    Who is saying Wuseng are not monks? Current Wuseng are monastic members, so they are a class of monk in Shaolin, unlike Sujiadizi and don't exist in other Buddhist traditions, but their secular level of precepts doesn't mean they don't live monastic lives as part of the monastic order.

    However, former Wuseng who lived monastic lives at Shaolin but now live secular lives no longer have anything that seals their position as monks. Their level of precept is secular, and they live secular lives. They are former monks. It's not about writing them off, but just calling it what it is. What made them monks was their monastic lives. Unlike a Heshang who might leave the monastery and travel, their full precepts mean they are monks wherever they go. A Wuseng who returns to secular life is just a Sujiadizi/Wushu dizi, as most of these non Chinese disciples are in the first place, having never been monks of any stretch.

    The abbot has no reason to "revert to the original precepts" or "re-establish Buddhism at Shaolin" as if nothing but Wuseng were there before his ascension. The majority of the monks there are fully ordained Heshang and so were they in the past. Modern Wuseng were never as numerous as the Sengbing of centuries past.

    Are you saying he's trying to abolish the Wuseng class altogether?

    As for Biaoyanseng, the title makes their identity obvious. They are actors. It's a marketing tool and sort of dishonest if they don't make that clear in their performances where people think they are going to see the "Shaolin monks" from the monastery. They are monks like Jet Li was a monk, even if they take basic discipleship vows and receive the abbot's blessing. All that serves to do is sort of trademark the tours and make them official so they receive the profit.

  10. #70
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    It's all about history

    When the abbot took office, the number of biaoyanseng increased. He had to fortify his position, and there were rival factions (still are - temples aren't immune to internal politics - quite the opposite) so he got some outside help for the publicity tours. It was a dubious move, and perhaps not one that can be blamed directly upon the Abbot because during the transition, a lot was in play and many other forces took advantage of the chaos.

    The abbot is not trying to dissolve the wuseng at all, but surely you've noticed that it's been all about the Yan generation lately.

    My point about this is just that while you are correct about your definitions, LFJ, the popular opinion is quite different. It's just like how the dictionary definition of some words don't match the popular definition. And Shaolin is a part of the world, so it falls victim to popular opinion.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    My point about this is just that while you are correct about your definitions, LFJ, the popular opinion is quite different. It's just like how the dictionary definition of some words don't match the popular definition. And Shaolin is a part of the world, so it falls victim to popular opinion.
    I don't think it "falls victim" at all...

    There are several classes of ordination at Shaolin, unique to them, and to my knowledge it has never been outlined on their official website, and I have to wonder why. Education and transparency would go a long way in repairing Shaolin's bad reputation from other Buddhist groups and folks worldwide who aren't familiar with its monastic order.

    Instead, on their website they are always posting notices about fraudulent groups domestically and abroad putting on performances, selling medicines, fortune telling, etc. under the "Shaolin" banner. They attack these groups because they say it gives Shaolin a bad reputation, but it seems to me it's because they are cutting into the official Shaolin profit.

    The latest notice put on their website even attacks these groups for donning the monastic robes as casual dress or using them as school uniforms, which mixes up monk and layman. I agree, but isn't Shaolin guilty of this itself?

    It seems they don't care about defending their reputation unless it has direct correlation to cashflow in any direction, whether increasing their own or impeding others... to ultimately increase their own through "official" activities.

    So, no... I don't think they are victims of anything except greed. Tightening the reins, re-discipleship under the abbot, all of it only serves to funnel the profits back home.

  12. #72
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    I should have been a little more clear there

    By 'falls victim' I didn't mean Shaolin Temple. I meant the Shaolin diaspora on the whole.

    Fraudulent Shaolin causes problems for the Temple's profits for sure, but it also damages Shaolin's name as a whole. That's a double edged sword. Shaolin Temple should do what it can to protect it's name. All Shaolin enthusiasts should do likewise. In part, that's what this thread is about as we're not questioning the skills of said non-Chinese Shaolin monks, we're questioning their legitimacy. Certainly someone can be a legitimate Shaolin master without being a monk. But to be a legitimate Shaolin monk, well, what does that mean? Do we apply the Buddhist precepts, the Shaolin official nod (and if so, from what year as that definition has changed?) or what is stated in popular press (not my criteria at all as you'll see by many posts on Shaolin tours I've made in the past here).

    As for the robe issue, well, we sell robes () so I totally agree that's a bit possessive of the teachings (or at least, the fashion )
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  13. #73
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    Some more questions

    Ok let me see if i get it


    • Shaolin Temple is a temple indeed (duh)... not a kung fu academy
    • The kung fu in the Shaolin Temple is just the "vehicle" the monks use to cultivalte their qi
    • So, a Shaolin monk, is not a kung fu master, a Shaolin Monk is... a monk who knows kung fu (and is very good in it)
    • There are some "types" of discipleship (i think i don't get this part):

    a) Wuseng
    b)Sujiadizi
    c)Wenseng
    d)Wushu dizi
    e)Hesheng
    • The difference between these is the religious ceremony and taking some vows
    • Talking about the "non-chinese shaolin monks" (no racism), if we already know that not all of them are buddhists, why do they have a buddhist name like "Shi X X" if that's a religious name? So if i'm a disciple of a shaolin monk, am i a religious disciple or a "martial" disciple?


    Am i right? if someone could explain me the "discipleship" stuff please

  14. #74
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    Not all Shaolin Monks practice martial arts!

    Heshang and Wenseng are names for the same thing, a fully ordained/scholarly monk. In Shaolin they may or may not practice martial arts to various degrees.

    Wushu Dizi has nothing to do with Buddhist discipleship. It's from Confucianism. Many CMA systems have this sort of martial discipleship. One can be a Wushu Dizi under some master and be at any or no level of Buddhist ordination. It's a separate thing.

    The levels of ordination/precepts/discipleship in Shaolin are explained here: Shaolin Monasticism & Discipleship

    As for people not being Buddhist but undergoing Buddhist discipleship ceremonies and receiving Dharma-names... well, you tell me why they do it...

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Not all Shaolin Monks practice martial arts!
    Ok, i knew that, and thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Heshang and Wenseng are names for the same thing, a fully ordained/scholarly monk. In Shaolin they may or may not practice martial arts to various degrees.
    Perfect, so i got it right... they are monks basically, in the religious context, the kung fu is just the "vehicle" for cultivating their energy

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Wushu Dizi has nothing to do with Buddhist discipleship. It's from Confucianism. Many CMA systems have this sort of martial discipleship. One can be a Wushu Dizi under some master and be at any or no level of Buddhist ordination. It's a separate thing.
    About this... Confucianism? i think i missed something... Shaolin Temple is a Buddhist temple... but Confucianism is a philosophical/ethical "system", like Daoism... are confucianism and daoism something to do in the temple? (i'm a little ignorant in this, so forgive me if i mix some things i shouldn't)

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    The levels of ordination/precepts/discipleship in Shaolin are explained here: Shaolin Monasticism & Discipleship
    Thanks, just thanks... i have a new bookmark

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    As for people not being Buddhist but undergoing Buddhist discipleship ceremonies and receiving Dharma-names... well, you tell me why they do it...
    LOL idk... i hope we can know more about this someday


    Thank you LFJ, that was very helpful

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