Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks

[GeneChing]

... is that there is some fluidity between the disciple categories. A martial disciple may one day opt to take monk vows. A monk might 'disrobe' meaning to forsake their vows (see Should Warrior Monks Disrobe?, which is the complete transcript of my article of the same title in the 2010 Shaolin Special). While many have voiced criticism against the biaoyanseng, many of the present heshang did some time as a biaoyanseng. You have to stay in the moment with an individual when it comes to this. That's Shaolin impermanence for you.

As for people not being Buddhist but undergoing Buddhist discipleship ceremonies and receiving Dharma-names... well, you tell me why they do it...

As you mentioned, there is a martial discipleship which is very common and does not necessarily have a connection to Buddhism. However Shaolin descends from a Buddhist tradition, so a martial discipleship into the Shaolin lineage might include some Buddhist trappings. Such is the nature of China and Chinese religions; things often get mixed. I could see even a BSL discipleship retaining some Buddhist rituals. As for the Dharma-name, well, it's not unheard of for martial disciples to take an en familia name. Again, within Shaolin lineage Kung Fu clans, those Shaolin trappings might remain. Buddhist rules only apply to those that follow them. Just look at some of the vows in the Tiandianhui and Tong initiation rituals. If a master stands outside of that, he can make up any sort of disciple name he pleases, something like Shi Hengdarth perhaps.

Mind you, I'm not saying that this is proper or improper. It just is.

The latest notice put on their website even attacks these groups for donning the monastic robes as casual dress or using them as school uniforms, which mixes up monk and layman.

Do you have a link to this? I'm afraid I haven't been keeping up with the website.

[HmorenoM]

... is that there is some fluidity between the disciple categories. A martial disciple may one day opt to take monk vows.

A monk might 'disrobe' meaning to forsake their vows

Like Shi Yan Ming? or Li Peng? (I think Li Peng never was a monk but... whatever)

While many have voiced criticism against the biaoyanseng, many of the present heshang did some time as a biaoyanseng.

Ok, then "biaoyangseng" is a type of discipleship too? or is just a "title"... as you said

the biaoyanseng. These are the monks that go on the 'official' Shaolin tours. Technically, they are a subset of wuseng, although they tend to be contracted strictly for the Shaolin stage shows. (...)

Ok, if i got it right, wuseng are warrior monks (so they are not fully ordained, they take just 5 vows: no killing, no stealing, no sexual misconduct, no wrong speech, no intoxicants)

(...)The biaoyenseng are much less committed. They're really just wushu performers at heart. The 'official' ones do take vows, usually under Abbot Yongxin so they're usually Yan generation, but the vows are only of a honorary nature and the title should be discarded after the tour is done. Of course, they don't necessarily do that. (...)

(...)they usually have all the traditional forms. They might not know the applications, but they have the forms.

So, is biaoyangseng a "type" of discipleship... like a... "softer" "relaxed" discipleship?... About those "official" ones... if they take vows, does that makes them wenseng? or being a biaoyangseng, even when is a subset of wuseng, doesn't mean that you have to take vows

You have to stay in the moment with an individual when it comes to this. That's Shaolin impermanence for you.

As you mentioned, there is a martial discipleship which is very common and does not necessarily have a connection to Buddhism. However Shaolin descends from a Buddhist tradition, so a martial discipleship into the Shaolin lineage might include some Buddhist trappings. Such is the nature of China and Chinese religions; things often get mixed.

That was very helpful

Just look at some of the vows in the Tiandianhui and Tong initiation rituals. If a master stands outside of that, he can make up any sort of disciple name he pleases, something like Shi Hengdarth perhaps.

I still don't get the different ceremonies and initiation rituals part

Mind you, I'm not saying that this is proper or improper. It just is.

That's important i think...

I'll read the article right now

Thanks Gene, and LFJ

[GeneChing]

Like Shi Yan Ming? or Li Peng? (I think Li Peng never was a monk but... whatever)

I think Shi Yanming still claims to be a Shaolin monk. Zhang Lipeng formally disrobed. He was part of the wuseng before the Abbot, when Shaolin was more chaotic. Both Yanming and Zhang Lipeng were part that first generation of wuseng/biaoyanseng following the Cultural Revolution. They represented Shaolin during a very lean period and had to do everything: performing modern wushu, teaching traditional kung fu and answering challenges. Other monks may have disrobed but might still take up the cloth for demonstrations.

Ok, then "biaoyangseng" is a type of discipleship too? or is just a "title"... as you said

It's more like a slang than a title. A biaoyanseng usually takes some vows and, of course, shaves, but those vows are often very temporary, just held for the duration of the performance tour. Essentially, they took cursory vows but then disrobe once their job is done. This practice is declining now at Shaolin, but a few years ago, right around when the Abbot was inaugurated, it was quite rampant. That wasn't that long ago, so it created a huge grey zone, which will hopefully fade with time. Nowadays the official biaoyanseng are more monastic. Note that biaoyanseng pretty unique to Shaolin as other Chinese Buddhist monks don't really do shows like Kung Fu demos. I have heard the term used in regards to some chanting monks, but I'm not sure that was a proper usage of the word and it was used by someone that was Shaolin-influenced.

[LFJ]

The latest notice put on their website even attacks these groups for donning the monastic robes as casual dress or using them as school uniforms, which mixes up monk and layman.

Do you have a link to this? I'm afraid I haven't been keeping up with the website.

I read this notice in the Chinese version of the website and just looked up the English version of the notice. The English doesn't have this line.

English: Statement of China Songshan Shaolin Temple
Chinese: 中国嵩山少林寺声明

The line from the Chinese notice states: "有的将僧服当成校服或便装穿着，混淆僧俗仪表"

"Some use monastic garments as school uniforms or casual dress attire, blurring the appearance of monks and laymen."

[LFJ]

It's more like a slang than a title. A biaoyanseng usually takes some vows and, of course, shaves, but those vows are often very temporary, just held for the duration of the performance tour.

This was merely to make them an official performance troupe, so that other unofficial groups couldn't perform under the Shaolin banner.

If someone is serious about taking Buddhist vows, they won't just take temporary vows to join an official martial arts performance troupe.

[HmorenoM]

I read this notice in the Chinese version of the website and just looked up the English version of the notice. The English doesn't have this line.

English: Statement of China Songshan Shaolin Temple
Chinese: 中国嵩山少林寺声明

The line from the Chinese notice states: "有的将僧服当成校服或便装穿着，混淆僧俗仪表"

"Some use monastic garments as school uniforms or casual dress attire, blurring the appearance of monks and laymen."

Excuse me LFJ... it's me again asking stuff

Are those "monastic garments" the orange/yellow/gray uniforms that we see in some Shaolin schools?

[LFJ]

Yes. The various monastic robes have a double collar. There is the outer robe that folds left over right, then the button up style which is work clothing. Both with the double collar.

Strictly speaking, they should be reserved for monastics, either monks or nuns. There is another Chinese robe for laymen Buddhist practitioners, but ironically I've never seen them worn by the laity in Shaolin. Other Buddhists sects tend to adhere more closely to this kind of thing, and based on that notice, it seems Shaolin is trying to correct it as well.

[GeneChing]

...would it bother you if Shaolin Temple was to propose a grading system where Shaolin students wore monastic garments that were color-coded designated by their level of achievement like ranking belts and that this system, while allegedly including some Buddhist practice alongside the martial arts, would be open to non-Buddhists?

Just asking...for now...

The English doesn't have this line.

That's funny. So typical!

This was merely to make them an official performance troupe, so that other unofficial groups couldn't perform under the Shaolin banner.

If someone is serious about taking Buddhist vows, they won't just take temporary vows to join an official martial arts performance troupe.

Sure, right, if someone is serious about their vows. How does one quantify seriousness? Nevertheless, temp vows have been taken by biaoyanseng to make those official troupes. Technically speaking, they can call themselves Shaolin monks. Some of them went on to become fully ordained. Others disrobed as soon as they got off tour. It's tricky business when you start making broad distinctions and stop looking at the individuals.

[HmorenoM]

...would it bother you if Shaolin Temple was to propose a grading system where Shaolin students wore monastic garments that were color-coded designated by their level of achievement like ranking belts and that this system, while allegedly including some Buddhist practice alongside the martial arts, would be open to non-Buddhists?

Just asking...for now...

It wouldn't bother me ...

[pazman]

...would it bother you if Shaolin Temple was to propose a grading system where Shaolin students wore monastic garments that were color-coded designated by their level of achievement like ranking belts and that this system, while allegedly including some Buddhist practice alongside the martial arts, would be open to non-Buddhists?

Just asking...for now...

How do you determine "achievement" in Shaolin gongfu?

As for people who want "play" monk for a short time either for interesting experience or they don't know if they really want to renounce or not, there are many Buddhist temples and monasteries that already do this, so its probably not a problem.

A guy in a strip mall wearing robes and teaching wushu...eh, not so cool.

[GeneChing]

How do you determine "achievement" in Shaolin gongfu?

Through examinations. Sounds sort of like belt exams. There were examinations at the 2012 European Shaolin Culture Festival.

[DamoY2K]

Ultimately the "moral of the story" is that you cannot define a - Shaolin - "monk" just by its name or robe, Chinese or Western.

Shaolin itself always had - and always will IMO - a great mix of "characters" with varied backgrounds and changing roles ..... Chan teaches impermanence, so .....

In the end what always makes the difference are conduct and competence, regardless of titles and robes, at the Shaolin Temple as well as in any Shaolin school around the world.

[pazman]

Through examinations. Sounds sort of like belt exams. There were examinations at the 2012 European Shaolin Culture Festival.

I guess this leads naturally to the question: what's on the exam?

Lower duan rankings (in China) in "traditional" arts now include knowing, at least superficially, a few applications.

Lower duan rankings for Sanda, sadly, now include a sanda taolu.

[HmorenoM]

Ultimately the "moral of the story" is that you cannot define a - Shaolin - "monk" just by its name or robe, Chinese or Western.

Shaolin itself always had - and always will IMO - a great mix of "characters" with varied backgrounds and changing roles ..... Chan teaches impermanence, so .....

In the end what always makes the difference are conduct and competence, regardless of titles and robes, at the Shaolin Temple as well as in any Shaolin school around the world.

I couldn't agree more with this

(...)
Lower duan rankings (in China) in "traditional" arts now include knowing, at least superficially, a few applications.

Lower duan rankings for Sanda, sadly, now include a sanda taolu.

Sanda taolu?

[pazman]

Sanda taolu?

I should qualify that by saying that was 2 years ago and it didn't seem like a popular decision at the time.

At the sports university where I worked they started teaching it in the Intro to Sanda class for non-majors. They had to learn it before they even got to hitting mitts or hitting the heavy bag, and it took up the first third of the semester. Absolute disaster.

It was kind of like pre-arranged shadowboxing with a couple of break falls thrown in, and ending in a "snazzy" pose.

Gene, if you were King of Shaolin, what would you include in the examinations?