Registered User
A good teacher can pass on great techniques through forms practice I feel. For example, there's a tai chi technique (I can't remember the name of that certain Chen tai chi posture) that pulls an opponent off balance by grabbing the wrist and elbow, but many people who perform that posture in the form have their hands spaced out too far apart as if they're doing the technique on a giant!
User (in rehab)
[QUOTE=Bernard;1205743]A good teacher can pass on great techniques through forms practice I feel...QUOTE]
So even if a system is incomplete it still retains value in what is passed on structurally?
I tend to agree. My first sifu said that every teacher will show you what he wants you to learn, but it is up to you to fill in the gaps (what he didn't know or held back from teaching). This can be done with enough experience.
I think this is where training in a traditional system has an advantage over going it alone. Past experience is built into the structure of the training.
Two of my teachers strongly disagreed, believing that only those with considerable fighting experience can truly reveal a system. I see the point in this, but the fighting experience doesn't have to come from the same school, and there are many problems associated with sparring only within the same "style."
Can a system that has lacked real fighting experience for a couple of generations be returned to its combative roots?
"Look, I'm only doing me job. I have to show you how to defend yourself against fresh fruit."
For it breeds great perfection, if the practise be harder then the use. Sir Francis Bacon
the world has a surplus of self centered sh1twh0res, so anyone who extends compassion to a stranger with sincerity is alright in my book. also people who fondle road kill. those guys is ok too. GunnedDownAtrocity
Shifu
where are you from? this a is not the case with a lot of the schools I have visited but there are a lot that do however I find this is gross assumption. I personally teach fighters. We don't teach kids we don't wear silk uniforms we just train kung fu. 8 step is a viscous fighting system through and through.I see most Chinese martial arts school as Physical Culture rather than fighting gyms. Where I'm from, most of the old Chinese martial art clubs don't practice like how they use to. It was a lot rougher back then and you would need to keep a stock of that bruise liniment. Today its more for the kids, lion dance and all.
I have taught fighter who have won in the UFC and the USMTA ans well as full contact tough man matches.
I do however preserve the culture as I teach traditionally in the language all in Chinese, I have not modified or changed any of the methods other than to update certain techns and I preserved the health side as well learning bone setting tui na acupuncture, qigong and taji
KUNG FU USA
www.eightstepkungfu.com
Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
Wu style Taiji Chuan
Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."
Registered User
Well I did say "most" and not "all" Personally I'm glad there are schools like yours.Originally Posted by EarthDragon
It seems among the Chinese instructors of the clubs I referred to, their focus changed over the years. While this saddens me, I came to respect their choice. I believe they wanted to teach Chinese children (non-Chinese children are welcome as well) values through Chinese Physical culture and not emphasize so much on fighting.
Last edited by Bernard; 01-13-2013 at 05:03 PM. Reason: none
Registered User
I use fighting, and the discipline to suffer through the fight training to teach Chinese children Chinese values. Others and adults have been welcome as well. The Chinese children were the most successful. The head start from their tiger moms made a difference.
Suffer and endure in order to achieve. Discipline through martial dance is one type of discipline. Going up against adult blackbelts at open mat sparring, getting the wind knocked out of you 10 times(I counted) on your first day, and going back to deliver your own brand of pain is another type of discipline. His offense was excellent. His defense was not. He had tears in his eyes, but never lost composure, and went back in for more.
Registered User
What UFC winner did you teach and did he use TCMA techniques to win UFC?
"If Ashida wished you to know his real name, I am sure he would write to you and tell you himself." --Danny Sainty
"So, you supposed martial artists, what are you trining for? Who are you training to fight? Apparently no one. Because even in a hypothetical situation, you puss out, Ha! Ha!" --Ashida Kim
Shifu
yes a combination of praying mantis shuai jiao and bjj, his name is Joel Sutton UFC #6 in Buffalo NY and UFC #7 in NC he won both his bouts.TCMA techniques to win UFC?What UFC winner did you teach and did he use
UFC # 6 was nicknamed the blood batlle in Buffalo, the bloodiest UFC match in history at the time. my student headbutted his opponent split his forehead open then after being taken to the ground Joel slide his fingers inside the cut ripped it wide open and blood poured and sprayed all over the mat john McCarthy and the doctors stopped the match.
KUNG FU USA
www.eightstepkungfu.com
Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
Wu style Taiji Chuan
Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."
Registered User
Would you say the reason UFC fighters don't use kung fu techniques anymore is because those moves are no longer allowed?
"If Ashida wished you to know his real name, I am sure he would write to you and tell you himself." --Danny Sainty
"So, you supposed martial artists, what are you trining for? Who are you training to fight? Apparently no one. Because even in a hypothetical situation, you puss out, Ha! Ha!" --Ashida Kim
Shaolin Jinnaluo War Cult
Are you serious? Jab, cross, hook, overhand, spinning backfist, side kick, front kick, knee, elbow are not TCMA moves?
One of my old shifus has two former students in the UFC. TCMA is not just eye gouge and groin strike you know.
Registered User
Do you mean Uechi Ryu Karate?
User (in rehab)
Korean, Chinese, Buddhist, Taoist, classical and modern--now that's eclectic!
As it should be. Only outsiders would see anything wrong with sharing and combining traditions. From the "emic" perspective it is normal.
"Look, I'm only doing me job. I have to show you how to defend yourself against fresh fruit."
For it breeds great perfection, if the practise be harder then the use. Sir Francis Bacon
the world has a surplus of self centered sh1twh0res, so anyone who extends compassion to a stranger with sincerity is alright in my book. also people who fondle road kill. those guys is ok too. GunnedDownAtrocity
I'm your Huckleberry
Lol that's nasty
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb
Registered User
His official record is 2-4-1 and he's not exactly an amazing fighter. Certainly not someone you want to hold up as the shining star of TCMA. Not to mention that back in those days there were fewer worthy opponents and he didn't exactly win against anyone of note, even considering the time period.
Shaolin Jinnaluo War Cult
Well, it should be. Unfortunately a lot of people want to pretend to know how to fight and not really engage in the necessary activities to make them proficient at it. That fact and gearing classes towards western children really took a lot of the tradition out of TMAs.
Sure it is. Sanda as a sporting format isn't, but Sanda in the original sense is thousands of years old. It's sparring and it's indigenous to all Kung Fu. It's what kumite is to Karate. If you do Wing Chun, there's WC sanda, if you do CLF there's CLF sanda. In the modern sense, someone may practice only "modern sanda" but someone else may study traditional Shaolin and use his traditional sanda to compete. Modified for the reality and rules of ring fighting, of course.
Not if you train application, it's not such a leap. If your working your traditional techs, on bags and pads and against resisting opponents, there's not that much transitioning. If you only do forms and compliance drills, than sure...it's miles away.
Well the way I see it, there's not a lot of difference in the application of jab, cross in TCMA, MT or boxing. Sure there's style/flavor, some footwork...but the fundamental essence of applying jab, cross is the same.
Boxers will always be better at it, because boxers dedicate all their training time to exercises that will make them better punchers. I don't think it's because the 1-2 combo in boxing is inherently superior to any other styles 1-2 combo. It is a numbers game. They are the best punchers because they put the most time into it.
It's really silly when someone has the attitude that, "1-2 is ineffective if used by a TCMA guy, but.....should it prove effective....then it's no longer TCMA, it's now either boxing or MT."
As to the Muay Boran techs, you say they were never developed as well...perhaps, or, maybe, given the nature of MTB with kicking and grappling featuring heavily, they didn't see it prudent to devote so much time to those techs.
In recent decades, yes, MT borrowed hook and uppercut; which they owned earlier in MTB...perhaps slightly different versions, but jab and cross have remained unchanged since the ancient times.
You can't deny that boxers have to make adjustments if they enter the kick boxing or MMA world. That doesn't mean they aren't using their boxing, but they aren't using it exactly as they would in a boxing match.
I agree.
Yes, but when traditional techs are applied, as they are meant to be used in combat, they tend to resemble kick boxing moves anyway. It's just the nature of fighting. People get too caught up in form and can't distinguish it from application. People who fight, or at least spar hard, know the difference. That doesn't mean those other exercises don't have value, but if you only train them, you will never be able to apply anything.
The techs a MT fighter uses in the cage remain the same, but the flavor changes drastically. Watch a video of MT fights in Thailand; then watch a guy with a MT background in the UFC. The fights look a lot different, reason being, MT against MT is highly stylized. They are constantly trying to defend the leg kick and looking for the clinch. Boxing vs boxing, Judo vs Judo, ect. are stylized as well. Put any of these guys against someone with a different background in the cage, the flavor changes. They may use the same techs, but the fight will look a lot different.
I agree with you here, but there's an awful lot of TCMA training that is applicable to full contact fighting; that many folks just ignore/avoid.
What do you expect it to look like? A Jet Li movie? TCMA applied in a ring format is going to look like sanda, not performance wushu. They have performance MT as well you know. It looks an awful lot like Thai wushu, but the fighting aspect still looks like Muay Thai. Which looks a little like sanda. Which resembles kick boxing, which seems a bit like MMA...it's the nature of application.
Shaolin Jinnaluo War Cult
Absolutely. If two people began training the apps for real and testing them on each other, they will learn how to fight with their system.
Shifu can't give that to you even if he has it. You have to take it; and you can take it whether he gives it to you or not. It's right there if you want it.
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