Some observations on TCMA

[Bacon]

Are you serious? Jab, cross, hook, overhand, spinning backfist, side kick, front kick, knee, elbow are not TCMA moves?

One of my old shifus has two former students in the UFC. TCMA is not just eye gouge and groin strike you know.

While they can be found in TCMA they've been perfected in application by boxers and the folks who use them in the UFC and other professional full contact fight organizations will train hands from boxing and muay thai. Roundhouse kicks have been perfected by Thai Boxers and the folks who fight in those orgs train Muay Thai for their kicks. It doesn't mean you can't find them in other styles but looking at someone in a professional full contact fight throwing those and going, "wow those are in TCMA too," is a joke. They may exist in TCMA but that's not what e person is training to make them so effective with those moves.

[Kellen Bassette]

While they can be found in TCMA they've been perfected in application by boxers and the folks who use them in the UFC and other professional full contact fight organizations will train hands from boxing and muay thai. Roundhouse kicks have been perfected by Thai Boxers and the folks who fight in those orgs train Muay Thai for their kicks. It doesn't mean you can't find them in other styles but looking at someone in a professional full contact fight throwing those and going, "wow those are in TCMA too," is a joke. They may exist in TCMA but that's not what e person is training to make them so effective with those moves.

I'll agree with you on the roundhouse kick, most fighters have adapted the Thai style there...(though not all, Machida, for one, throws a snapping roundhouse)...but Muay Thai, for the most part, doesn't train side kicks. A few guys throw them, the vast majority don't. You could just as well say a Thai boxer doing a side thrust kick borrowed it from TCMA.
Front kicks, it depends. The teep is from Thai boxing, but the front thrust kick and snap kick are not. There's a lot of those being used as well. Those come from TCMA, Karate and TKD. They weren't perfected by kick boxers, they were borrowed by kick boxers.
Hands, I disagree. There are certain flavors between the styles, but when you apply hand techs in a fight, not a form, there always going to be similar to boxing, MT, kick boxing, whatever. I don't feel any of those disciplines are much different when it comes to punches. They just adapt differently to different rules and ranges. A lot of the "style" is just natural adaptation to what your opponent is likely to be doing under those rules/circumstances. Fundamentally it's the same idea. A cross is pretty much a cross, boxing didn't invent or perfect it, it's been there forever.

[Bacon]

I'll agree with you on the roundhouse kick, most fighters have adapted the Thai style there...(though not all, Machida, for one, throws a snapping roundhouse)...but Muay Thai, for the most part, doesn't train side kicks. A few guys throw them, the vast majority don't. You could just as well say a Thai boxer doing a side thrust kick borrowed it from TCMA. Front kicks, it depends. The teep is from Thai boxing, but the front thrust kick and snap kick are not. There's a lot of those being used as well. Those come from TCMA, Karate and TKD. They weren't perfected by kick boxers, they were borrowed by kick boxers.

Well Machida and GSP both favour the side kick, and who could forget GSP's legendary sinning back kick. Those guys were both karateka. Even of the guys that weren't the only reason they can hijack techniques from styles which aren't their primary are because they're training in styles which emphasize contact and resistant training and have a good reputation for producing good fighters. In striking that's generally (read pretty much always) muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, boxing. In GSP and Machida's cases it's two well respected styles of karate, Shotokan and Kyokushin but even then they have Thai boxing/kickboxing and boxing coaches for their striking.

Hands, I disagree. There are certain flavors between the styles, but when you apply hand techs in a fight, not a form, there always going to be similar to boxing, MT, kick boxing, whatever. I don't feel any of those disciplines are much different when it comes to punches. They just adapt differently to different rules and ranges. A lot of the "style" is just natural adaptation to what your opponent is likely to be doing under those rules/circumstances. Fundamentally it's the same idea. A cross is pretty much a cross, boxing didn't invent or perfect it, it's been there forever.

Well if you want to see who has better hands then it's a pretty simple matter of isolating a fighting contest to hands only. Maybe they could do it in some kind of roped square with gloves. Joking aside, let's face it when it comes to hands, bet on the boxer. That's their specialty. Saying the hand striking in TCMA is equivalent is like saying the takedowns in BJJ are just as good as those in freestyle wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

Well Machida and GSP both favour the side kick, and who could forget GSP's legendary sinning back kick. Those guys were both karateka. Even of the guys that weren't the only reason they can hijack techniques from styles which aren't their primary are because they're training in styles which emphasize contact and resistant training and have a good reputation for producing good fighters. In striking that's generally (read pretty much always) muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, boxing. In GSP and Machida's cases it's two well respected styles of karate, Shotokan and Kyokushin but even then they have Thai boxing/kickboxing and boxing coaches for their striking.

I agree with all of this...I wasn't meaning to imply Machida as a TCMA guy, by any means...I was just pointing out he was an oddity in MMA for not adopting the Thai roundhouse.
You are also correct that MT, kick boxing and boxing are generally perceived as the effective striking styles, but it's simply because so much emphasis is put on the fighting/resiting aspect. This does not mean this aspect doesn't exist, or wasn't traditionally a major part of other systems, it simply means those styles you mentioned have retained this element of their training whereas many TMAs have got lazy and let it go. But not all. An effective Sanda fighter is not doing MT. There are similar elements, as with all striking arts, but they are different.

Well if you want to see who has better hands then it's a pretty simple matter of isolating a fighting contest to hands only. Maybe they could do it in some kind of roped square with gloves. Joking aside, let's face it when it comes to hands, bet on the boxer. That's their specialty. Saying the hand striking in TCMA is equivalent is like saying the takedowns in BJJ are just as good as those in freestyle wrestling.

No doubt. Boxers will always have the best hands because that's the focus of their training. However, put the boxer in a MT match, things change. Put the MT guy in a MMA cage, he has to adapt. Put a wrestler in a boxing match, probably won't go well, put a boxer in a wrestling match, same thing.

We can't spend 100% of our time training every aspect of fighting. We can stick to one aspect and be lacking in the rest or specialize in one aspect and be competent in the rest, or be a jack of all trades, and go for the well rounded route.

That depends on what your interests are, whether or not you want to compete; and in what format; or what you feel you need for your own reasons.

I guess my point is, if a TCMA guy fights in a Kick boxing match, that doesn't mean he's forgot his 10 years of training and learned western kick boxing on the spot. If a nak Muay fights in the cage, it's not going to look like the stuff you see at Lumpinee Stadium. That doesn't mean he's not MT and now uses only MMA techs, (whatever that may mean.)

[Syn7]

I see no reason why TCMA can't work in MMA if you train TCMA for MMA. TCMA has all the principles needed. All you have to do is adapt the systems you use(assuming they are good systems at all) to MMA environment. Learn to use your qinna on the ground and against the case, learn to use your bridging and SJ in clinch scenarios as well as your striking. Practice your throws. Learn to fight out of ****ty scenarios and train with the kind of people you are likely to face. I really don't see why not. I trash MA's that advertise combat but don't actually train it that way, but there are a ton of combat effective styles. Sure China has a cultural bias in their attitude about fighting, everywhere does. Adapt adapt adapt. This is what the true spirit of combat oriented MA's is. Nothing more nothing less. Persevere in any situation. Fight on.

[Syn7]

Jack of all trades master of none, often better than a master of one.



It really depends on what you want. If you wanna be a pro boxer, don't do wing chun. If you want to be well rounded, you must accept that your time management changes drastically.

[jdhowland]

It was an interesting combination of religious observations and martial arts with each discipline informing the other. The monks and students practiced everything as a continuous training platform.

Korean, Chinese, Buddhist, Taoist, classical and modern--now that's eclectic!

As it should be. Only outsiders would see anything wrong with sharing and combining traditions. From the "emic" perspective it is normal.

[Bacon]

I agree with all of this...I wasn't meaning to imply Machida as a TCMA guy, by any means...I was just pointing out he was an oddity in MMA for not adopting the Thai roundhouse.
You are also correct that MT, kick boxing and boxing are generally perceived as the effective striking styles, but it's simply because so much emphasis is put on the fighting/resiting aspect. This does not mean this aspect doesn't exist, or wasn't traditionally a major part of other systems, it simply means those styles you mentioned have retained this element of their training whereas many TMAs have got lazy and let it go.

Well that's what martial arts focus on. It's not a knitting circle.

But not all. An effective Sanda fighter is not doing MT. There are similar elements, as with all striking arts, but they are different.

Sanda isn't a TCMA.

No doubt. Boxers will always have the best hands because that's the focus of their training. However, put the boxer in a MT match, things change. Put the MT guy in a MMA cage, he has to adapt. Put a wrestler in a boxing match, probably won't go well, put a boxer in a wrestling match, same thing.

Yep but that adaptation from boxing, wrestling, muay Thai, kickboxing, bjj, into successful full contact fighting is leaps and bounds less than traditional martial arts.

We can't spend 100% of our time training every aspect of fighting. We can stick to one aspect and be lacking in the rest or specialize in one aspect and be competent in the rest, or be a jack of all trades, and go for the well rounded route.

True but you're leading away from the original issue. You were saying jab, cross, hook, uppercut, were TCMA techniques. The truth however is that boxing is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in terms of hands. You said muay Thai's hand strikes a similar. That's because they saw the effectiveness of boxing and stoles it. Yes there were similar strikes in muay Boran but it's not really jab, cross, uppercut, hook and it was never refined and applied to the same detail. Those are the province of boxing.

That depends on what your interests are, whether or not you want to compete; and in what format; or what you feel you need for your own reasons.

You train to be the best fighter you can. There are some things that will never change whether for competition or self defence. If you're not training for effectiveness then it turns into tae bo and cardio kickboxing.

I guess my point is, if a TCMA guy fights in a Kick boxing match, that doesn't mean he's forgot his 10 years of training and learned western kick boxing on the spot. If a nak Muay fights in the cage, it's not going to look like the stuff you see at Lumpinee Stadium. That doesn't mean he's not MT and now uses only MMA techs, (whatever that may mean.)

Well to the first, if the TCMA guy fights a kickboxing match he will probably get his rear handed to him if he doesn't fight like a kickboxer and use boxing hand techniques. It's not just because of the large gloves because we see the same thing in MMA. The second, muay Thai, there is little change when you take it to MMA except for the addition of ground grappling and the difference between the fence and cage. Other than that it can be exactly the same.

All good fighting looks pretty much the same when taken to a full contact environment. It just so happens that everything that works will pretty much look like boxing, kickboxing/muay thai, wrestling, bjj. It just so happens that they train the way they fight as opposed to a lot of TCMA training.

I see no reason why TCMA can't work in MMA if you train TCMA for MMA. TCMA has all the principles needed. All you have to do is adapt the systems you use(assuming they are good systems at all) to MMA environment. Learn to use your qinna on the ground and against the case, learn to use your bridging and SJ in clinch scenarios as well as your striking. Practice your throws. Learn to fight out of ****ty scenarios and train with the kind of people you are likely to face. I really don't see why not. I trash MA's that advertise combat but don't actually train it that way, but there are a ton of combat effective styles. Sure China has a cultural bias in their attitude about fighting, everywhere does. Adapt adapt adapt. This is what the true spirit of combat oriented MA's is. Nothing more nothing less. Persevere in any situation. Fight on.

Well that's the problem isn't it. The ones that don't adapt and don't change no longer work really. The ones that do just end up looking like kickboxing, muay thai, wrestling, and boxing. Honestly I'd love to see someone make pure, or even modified TCMA that actually looks like TCMA, work innthe ring. When you find a video let me know but I think it'll be a long wait.

[Bacon]

yes a combination of praying mantis shuai jiao and bjj, his name is Joel Sutton UFC #6 in Buffalo NY and UFC #7 in NC he won both his bouts.

UFC # 6 was nicknamed the blood batlle in Buffalo, the bloodiest UFC match in history at the time. my student headbutted his opponent split his forehead open then after being taken to the ground Joel slide his fingers inside the cut ripped it wide open and blood poured and sprayed all over the mat john McCarthy and the doctors stopped the match.

His official record is 2-4-1 and he's not exactly an amazing fighter. Certainly not someone you want to hold up as the shining star of TCMA. Not to mention that back in those days there were fewer worthy opponents and he didn't exactly win against anyone of note, even considering the time period.

[Kellen Bassette]

Well that's what martial arts focus on. It's not a knitting circle.

Well, it should be. Unfortunately a lot of people want to pretend to know how to fight and not really engage in the necessary activities to make them proficient at it. That fact and gearing classes towards western children really took a lot of the tradition out of TMAs.

Sanda isn't a TCMA.

Sure it is. Sanda as a sporting format isn't, but Sanda in the original sense is thousands of years old. It's sparring and it's indigenous to all Kung Fu. It's what kumite is to Karate. If you do Wing Chun, there's WC sanda, if you do CLF there's CLF sanda. In the modern sense, someone may practice only "modern sanda" but someone else may study traditional Shaolin and use his traditional sanda to compete. Modified for the reality and rules of ring fighting, of course.

Yep but that adaptation from boxing, wrestling, muay Thai, kickboxing, bjj, into successful full contact fighting is leaps and bounds less than traditional martial arts.

Not if you train application, it's not such a leap. If your working your traditional techs, on bags and pads and against resisting opponents, there's not that much transitioning. If you only do forms and compliance drills, than sure...it's miles away.

True but you're leading away from the original issue. You were saying jab, cross, hook, uppercut, were TCMA techniques. The truth however is that boxing is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in terms of hands. You said muay Thai's hand strikes a similar. That's because they saw the effectiveness of boxing and stoles it. Yes there were similar strikes in muay Boran but it's not really jab, cross, uppercut, hook and it was never refined and applied to the same detail. Those are the province of boxing.

Well the way I see it, there's not a lot of difference in the application of jab, cross in TCMA, MT or boxing. Sure there's style/flavor, some footwork...but the fundamental essence of applying jab, cross is the same.
Boxers will always be better at it, because boxers dedicate all their training time to exercises that will make them better punchers. I don't think it's because the 1-2 combo in boxing is inherently superior to any other styles 1-2 combo. It is a numbers game. They are the best punchers because they put the most time into it.

It's really silly when someone has the attitude that, "1-2 is ineffective if used by a TCMA guy, but.....should it prove effective....then it's no longer TCMA, it's now either boxing or MT."

As to the Muay Boran techs, you say they were never developed as well...perhaps, or, maybe, given the nature of MTB with kicking and grappling featuring heavily, they didn't see it prudent to devote so much time to those techs.
In recent decades, yes, MT borrowed hook and uppercut; which they owned earlier in MTB...perhaps slightly different versions, but jab and cross have remained unchanged since the ancient times.

You can't deny that boxers have to make adjustments if they enter the kick boxing or MMA world. That doesn't mean they aren't using their boxing, but they aren't using it exactly as they would in a boxing match.

You train to be the best fighter you can. There are some things that will never change whether for competition or self defence. If you're not training for effectiveness then it turns into tae bo and cardio kickboxing.

I agree.

Well to the first, if the TCMA guy fights a kickboxing match he will probably get his rear handed to him if he doesn't fight like a kickboxer and use boxing hand techniques. It's not just because of the large gloves because we see the same thing in MMA. The second, muay Thai, there is little change when you take it to MMA except for the addition of ground grappling and the difference between the fence and cage. Other than that it can be exactly the same.

Yes, but when traditional techs are applied, as they are meant to be used in combat, they tend to resemble kick boxing moves anyway. It's just the nature of fighting. People get too caught up in form and can't distinguish it from application. People who fight, or at least spar hard, know the difference. That doesn't mean those other exercises don't have value, but if you only train them, you will never be able to apply anything.

The techs a MT fighter uses in the cage remain the same, but the flavor changes drastically. Watch a video of MT fights in Thailand; then watch a guy with a MT background in the UFC. The fights look a lot different, reason being, MT against MT is highly stylized. They are constantly trying to defend the leg kick and looking for the clinch. Boxing vs boxing, Judo vs Judo, ect. are stylized as well. Put any of these guys against someone with a different background in the cage, the flavor changes. They may use the same techs, but the fight will look a lot different.

All good fighting looks pretty much the same when taken to a full contact environment. It just so happens that everything that works will pretty much look like boxing, kickboxing/muay thai, wrestling, bjj. It just so happens that they train the way they fight as opposed to a lot of TCMA training.

I agree with you here, but there's an awful lot of TCMA training that is applicable to full contact fighting; that many folks just ignore/avoid.

Well that's the problem isn't it. The ones that don't adapt and don't change no longer work really. The ones that do just end up looking like kickboxing, muay thai, wrestling, and boxing. Honestly I'd love to see someone make pure, or even modified TCMA that actually looks like TCMA, work innthe ring. When you find a video let me know but I think it'll be a long wait.

What do you expect it to look like? A Jet Li movie? TCMA applied in a ring format is going to look like sanda, not performance wushu. They have performance MT as well you know. It looks an awful lot like Thai wushu, but the fighting aspect still looks like Muay Thai. Which looks a little like sanda. Which resembles kick boxing, which seems a bit like MMA...it's the nature of application.

[Kellen Bassette]

Jack of all trades master of none, often better than a master of one.



It really depends on what you want. If you wanna be a pro boxer, don't do wing chun. If you want to be well rounded, you must accept that your time management changes drastically.

That's the truth of it.

Joe MMA wants to be the best in the world, so he gets himself a boxing trainer, a Muay Thai teacher, a wrestling coach and a BJJ instructor. Now he's got his punches, kicks, take downs and submissions on lock down. Trouble is, he still only has X amount of time to train. If he divides it evenly, that's 25% of his time working on each discipline. Now he's well rounded, but he's only 1/4 as good as any of his teachers at their specific art.

Depends what you want/need. You can't be a specialist and rock at everything. It's one or the other.

[Kellen Bassette]

I've seen from your other posts that you train Wing Chun, Muay Thai and MMA. You seem to be pretty sport oriented. I'm curious as to where Wing Chun fits into all this?

What value, if any, does it provide to your sport oriented training; in your opinion?

I don't mean this as a loaded question; I'm just curious.

[wenshu]

What do you expect it to look like?

[ShaolinDan]

No doubt. Boxers will always have the best hands because that's the focus of their training. However, put the boxer in a MT match, things change. Put the MT guy in a MMA cage, he has to adapt. Put a wrestler in a boxing match, probably won't go well, put a boxer in a wrestling match, same thing.

We can't spend 100% of our time training every aspect of fighting. We can stick to one aspect and be lacking in the rest or specialize in one aspect and be competent in the rest, or be a jack of all trades, and go for the well rounded route.

That depends on what your interests are, whether or not you want to compete; and in what format; or what you feel you need for your own reasons.

This. To dominate in a rule set means devoting your training time specifically to that rule set. When Sanda fights MT, if they use Sanda rules Sanda wins, if they use MT rules MT wins... When they mix up the rule set it's less predictable. It's that simple. If a person wants to dominate in a sporting venue, then they train specifically for that sporting venue. TCMA (in general) is a jack of all trades approach--it's never going to dominate in a rule set. But if you want grappling, striking, weapons, and culture all mixed together, it's hard to beat. As Kellen says, "it depends on what your interests are."

[Bacon]

Sure it is. Sanda as a sporting format isn't, but Sanda in the original sense is thousands of years old. It's sparring and it's indigenous to all Kung Fu. It's what kumite is to Karate. If you do Wing Chun, there's WC sanda, if you do CLF there's CLF sanda. In the modern sense, someone may practice only "modern sanda" but someone else may study traditional Shaolin and use his traditional sanda to compete. Modified for the reality and rules of ring fighting, of course.

See but you're highlighting the difference right there between kickboxing and TCMA. A kickboxer practiced his jab, cross, hook, uppercut, rounhouse kicks, blocking, slipping, and footwork the same way he does in a fight. Pretty much all the TCMA folks practice one way and then end up fighting like a bad kickboxer.

Not if you train application, it's not such a leap. If your working your traditional techs, on bags and pads and against resisting opponents, there's not that much transitioning. If you only do forms and compliance drills, than sure...it's miles away.

Considering everyone's TCMA application pretty much falls to pieces against a half decent boxer, kickboxer, wrestler, Thai boxer, etc. that doesn't hold a lot of water.

Well the way I see it, there's not a lot of difference in the application of jab, cross in TCMA, MT or boxing. Sure there's style/flavor, some footwork...but the fundamental essence of applying jab, cross is the same.

To be honest that shows your ignorance of the delicacies of boxing, muay Thai, and kickboxing.

Boxers will always be better at it, because boxers dedicate all their training time to exercises that will make them better punchers. I don't think it's because the 1-2 combo in boxing is inherently superior to any other styles 1-2 combo. It is a numbers game. They are the best punchers because they put the most time into it.

I'd say it's a combination of better technique, trainers who have actually used their techniques in full contact fighting, and actually practicing the way you play.

It's really silly when someone has the attitude that, "1-2 is ineffective if used by a TCMA guy, but.....should it prove effective....then it's no longer TCMA, it's now either boxing or MT."

No just that every time you see a TCMA guy doing a 1-2 it looks like bad boxing. When it's done well it looks like boxing, and generally the TMA folks who do it well cross train in boxing or are trained by someone who has.

As to the Muay Boran techs, you say they were never developed as well...perhaps, or, maybe, given the nature of MTB with kicking and grappling featuring heavily, they didn't see it prudent to devote so much time to those techs.
In recent decades, yes, MT borrowed hook and uppercut; which they owned earlier in MTB...perhaps slightly different versions, but jab and cross have remained unchanged since the ancient times.

No. If you take a look at boxing matches even 60 years ago you can see that isn't the case.

You can't deny that boxers have to make adjustments if they enter the kick boxing or MMA world. That doesn't mean they aren't using their boxing, but they aren't using it exactly as they would in a boxing match.

That's because they have additional components to worry about. Alteration in that way isn't the issue. The TCMA folks come in and just do things badly because they practice one way and fight another and end up doing the second and most important badly. The boxers, wrestlers, kickboxers, and others mentioned practice the same way as they fight.

Yes, but when traditional techs are applied, as they are meant to be used in combat, they tend to resemble kick boxing moves anyway. It's just the nature of fighting. People get too caught up in form and can't distinguish it from application. People who fight, or at least spar hard, know the difference. That doesn't mean those other exercises don't have value, but if you only train them, you will never be able to apply anything.

Again same issue. The TCMA folks practice one way and fight, badly, another.

The techs a MT fighter uses in the cage remain the same, but the flavor changes drastically. Watch a video of MT fights in Thailand; then watch a guy with a MT background in the UFC. The fights look a lot different, reason being, MT against MT is highly stylized. They are constantly trying to defend the leg kick and looking for the clinch. Boxing vs boxing, Judo vs Judo, ect. are stylized as well. Put any of these guys against someone with a different background in the cage, the flavor changes. They may use the same techs, but the fight will look a lot different.

Take a look at Anderson Silva. The only reason anything is altered is because of the opponent because he's good. And even with the others they're training muay Thai in combination rather than isolation. They practice the way they play.

I've seen from your other posts that you train Wing Chun, Muay Thai and MMA. You seem to be pretty sport oriented. I'm curious as to where Wing Chun fits into all this?

Actually my training isn't sport oriented at all. It's oriented toward developing combative skills. Sport fighting is a way to test one's skills, preferably in the most open ruleset but still with some safety considerations, ergo MMA rules. The wing chun helps improve coordination, balance, footwork, dirty boxing, straight kicks, stomps, and a few other things.

I agree with you here, but there's an awful lot of TCMA training that is applicable to full contact fighting; that many folks just ignore/avoid.

Really can you find me one (not sanda and who hasn't cross trained in non TCMA) who's been successful against high level competitors in professional MMA or Vale Tudo?

What do you expect it to look like? A Jet Li movie? TCMA applied in a ring format is going to look like sanda, not performance wushu. They have performance MT as well you know. It looks an awful lot like Thai wushu, but the fighting aspect still looks like Muay Thai. Which looks a little like sanda. Which resembles kick boxing, which seems a bit like MMA...it's the nature of application.

Practice the way you fight and you'll fight a whole lot better. It does you no help to practice something like mantis or hung gar and then box when you don the gloves, 4oz or otherwise.
And when folks train one way and fight another it does not make a good case for the techniques they're training and only makes a better case for boxing, kickboxing, and muay Thai. You'll notice most of the Thai boxers don't practice the old muay Boran forms any more.